AIBU to feel disappointed that religious songs and stories are being introduced to this toddler group?

[neolara]

OK. I'll come clean and admit it's a toddler group that is run in a church, headed up by the vicar's wife and staffed by volunteers from the church community. It is a completely fantastic toddler group. It's wildly popular, very friendly, lovely, lovely volunteers who make cups of tea and hand out biscuits and chat to all the mums. Really, IMO you couldn't ask for anything more from a toddler group. However, today they sang a couple of religious songs in amongst twinkle twinkle and started telling stories about Jesus. This is a new development and looks like a clear change of policy.

Up until today this toddler group was not obviously a "christian group" with no mention of Jesus or God, although families attending the group were invited along to child services and there was always information about the many and various activities the church organizes. I'm pretty convinced that the vast majority of families who go to the group are not attached to the church - they are just a random cross section of the people in our city. They go because it's a great group.

Now obviously, it is a church group, run by Christians and they are perfectly entitled to run it in whatever way they want. The running of the group has recently been taken over by someone new. She is extremely nice and seems very welcoming.

But as a non-believer, I felt very uncomfortable when the singing and stories are happening. I think this is partly because I just think the whole thing is nonsense (sorry to those who do believe, but I just do), partly because I see it as "indoctrinating" (I know this is only because I don't believe - if I agreed with the views I wouldn't see it in this way) and also because it makes me feel that if I don't believe then maybe I shouldn't be attending. I think that as the kids are so young, realistically they won't understand the stories or songs, so the fact that they are now happening is basically a way of signalling to the parents that this is now a religious group. Obviously, I can choose not to attend and this is something I may end up doing. All of which makes me sad because it has been such a fantastic, inclusive, toddler group in the past. I've been going to it for the past 7 years and it's been pretty great for all of that time.

Do you think it is worth mentioning to the (lovely) woman who runs the group the effect of introducing the religious element to the group? (I'd obviously leave out the bit about thinking Jesus is nonsense!) I wonder if she's even aware that by including religious songs / stories it can make it seem actively unwelcoming to those of other / or no faiths. Of course, this may be the effect that they are trying to achieve, which is obviously OK, (if sad for me!)

YABU if you dont like it leave

My DS was given a childrens bible for his birthday (as were all the children reaching a certain age) and i read him stories from it especially one with his name in it - but i tell him they are just stories the same as the gruffalo and thomas the tank engine. I figure this will be good for later when he hears all about god and religion at school - i will tell him we dont believe these stories are true but some people do and thats ok ...etc..

I would imagine the people taking my toddler group never even realised they had an atheist luker in their midst as i was polite and accepting and sang all the songs with as much enthusiasm as the next person ( its their group and i knew it was in a church hall when i joined so expected )

I just hope no one ever tells my ds that he or i am wrong in not believing as it is then that i will come down on them like a ton of bricks

Not sure how to reply BM! I would consider spirituality to be innate to humans; I don't think it requires adherence to a religion and/or a belief in the supernatural.

Have I seen it all now? I think I may just have

You're overthinking. If you're uncomfortable with it, just don't go.

I do remember my eldest coming home and being in absolute shock that God had made a whale eat a man then spit him out! But its no worse than aesop's fables, folklore, fairy tales...

Sorry, haven't had time to read all the responses, but from your OP - can I ask what the connection is for you between them including a couple of Jesus songs and that signalling it is a religious group where non believers aren't welcome? Is it possible that they are entirely welcoming anyone and everyone but just want to be openly making sure people know they're Christians for those who aren't as astute as you so that if people are interested in finding out more, then they can?

I'm curious because I'm a Christian and was a bit gutted a few months ago when a friend of mine started going to a discussion group and was excitedly telling me about stuff they'd been kicking around in the group and when I responded with interest she said "I didn't realise this was stuff you'd thought about - I guess I knew you went to church but I never really thought about what you did there". It's made me wonder how I can be a bit more open with people so that if they're interested then they can ask.

Obviously I would never want to batter them over the head if they aren't interested but I don't get the impression that is what's happening at your group? And I would never want that openness to make people feel like I don't want to be friends with them unless they believe - so why do a couple of songs / stories make you feel like the group is now only for believers?

Yes, some truly horrific things happen in fairy tales. That one where the wolf eats the goats and they cut its stomach open when it is sleeping and sew it up with stones in.

But a lot of children like a bit of horror.

When I was on mat leave with DS2 I went to the toddler group at my church, and I was a little uncomfortable when one of the leaders (who is completely lovely) did a christian song at the end of the otherwise secular singing bit. Not for myself, obviously, but because I wasn't sure if anyone else would feel excluded, as the OP did in her group. I'd say, if it bothers you enough that you'd actually consider not going, definitely speak to the leader. Even if she doesn't change the format, I'm sure that she would want to reassure you that you are absolutely still welcome.

My dd2's favourite book is her big book of Bible stories. They are amazing stories which have historical and cultural resonance. We also read the Christmas story at Christmas so they are not bewildered by who Mary and Joseph are and so on. I can't see how singing 'Who built the ark?' is any stranger than singing 'I'm a Flippy Floppy Scarecrow', the world is weird but fascinating to children. I positively enjoy taking them into different religious environments (e.g. my husband's church, in churches/synagogues or wherever) so they can see that variety of spiritual experience for themselves. When we are there, we do what everyone else is doing out of politeness (wear appropriate clothes, light candles, speak quietly). I can't get how people are so frightened of religion, that any mention of Jesus has them running for the hills.

This happened at a group I went to. Run in a church, best group around by a long way. I'd been going for years with no religious content at all. Familiar faces there that I chatted to every week. Then one day out of the blue they started singing religious songs at songtime. The toddlers were in uproar because they didn't sing the right song first. The mummies were sitting there looking perplexed and uncomfortable because they didn't know the songs. It was awful. Numbers started dropping off after that. After a while they gave up and reverted to normal.

I totally accept it's their group and they can run it how they like but it makes me feel hypocritical (which I realise is entirely my problem).

^^ this, really.

You're all correct, of course - bible stories, fairy tales and all other mysthologies are full of grotesque violence. I reckon it's just easier and pragmatic to treat the religious stuff as another of the many story sets our culture is based on.

I don't know if you've ever come across an adult who doesn't understand references to the Three Little Pigs or David and Goliath, for example - it's very weird. There's a sudden cultural vacuum.

I can understand people saying "It's a church, what do you expect?" But I think the difficulty comes when all, or most, of the groups in a town/ village are run by churches, with religious elements that people of different faiths, or no faiths, may feel uncomfortable with. Should these people go off and form their own groups? And then end up with highly segregated groups? Or should there be more neutral groups where everyone can intermix, in which case who should be running them?

Where we used to live it was all children's centres and everyone went there. Here it is all churches, and the OP's group sounds very like the one we go to, although it always had the religious songs and stories. Just to add to the confusion, there are some groups in churches that are run by children's centres or parents,and some run by the church, so I think it is initially hard to tell which is which, and if you were going to one and it somehow morphed into the other, it would be odd.

stella

these groups are run by VOLUNTEERS!!! so why do you voltunteer and run one? exactly

in fact our church one is not at all religious, but its all a bit entitled, we are lucky these groups want to run these groups quite frankly!!!!

Porca, that was what I was saying. Should people who don't like it go off and form their own groups? It was a genuine question . You are correct to infer that I don't have the time or the energy to volunteer to run one at the moment, then again nor do I have a large backing organisation behind me that owns a hall I can run it in.

I personally don't have an issue with the religious element, I was just saying ideally it would be good to have a choice of provision, whether that is run by the children's centre or is caused by parents who have decided to form their own group.

I know I am a bit over-entitled, I'm in recovery from the brilliance of the local authority run children's centre groups where I used to live. I was spoilt. I have to re-adapt to real life.

TBH Stella most chruch groups dont have any religuous overtones, I have been to baptist, c of e, catholic and methodists ones! Thinks OPs is a one off TBH

so lets not worry about it too much!!!! I was trying to say that people dont really seem to appreciate the effor that goes into running them thats all

I just think it would be a massive cheek to mention that you don't like the Christian songs/mentions whilst in a CHURCH, using CHURCH facilities and run by a VICAR's wife (who is probably doing it voluntarily for nothing)

Exactly!
The solution is easy-run your own. The people who moan about those 'who run things' are always the ones who don't want to put themselves out. It is very easy to run a toddler group. Get some people together and form a committee and hire a hall. I expect you can hire a church room cheaply and do it your way.

YABU. It's a church group run by practising Christians. Why wouldn't they?

Think of it like this: when you were little, I'm willing to bet that you sang religious songs about Gentle Jesus Meek and Mild etc etc at playgroup/Infants/nursery, and were you indoctrinated? Doesn't seem like it.

I was trying to say that people dont really seem to appreciate the effort that goes into running them thats all

The OP seems very appreciative though.
Reckon she's overthinking... it occurs to me the change is simply because there's a new person running it who likes including these sorts of songs and probably hasn't crossed her mind that they might be a new thing for the group. No agenda.

exoticfruits is spot on. I hear so much complaining on here about various aspects of toddler groups, 99.99999% of which are run by good will. But the people complaining never think to get off their arses and sort their own, more 'acceptable' group out, they just prefer to moan about what someone else is doing in their free time for no recompense.

Perhaps some people are not currently in a position to start their own toddler group at the moment. Doesn't mean they're not entitled to an opinion on things they attend though. I think it's always good if these things are discussed and debated :)

Or Hansel and Gretel...old woman in the woods throws a boy in a cage to get fat so she can slaughter and eat him, but they are saved by Gretel pushing her into the oven to burn to death.

And DS loves it, the bloodthirsty little brute! :)

This IS the Big Society, better get used to it. All those council run groups are having their funding cut and the organizers made redundant. People don't actually want to run groups themselves or volunteer or pay lots of money (I did used to go to a volunteer group but it was not very well run and inherently unstable as people kept leaving when their mat leave finished). So, that leaves the Church who, despite everyone muttering about them whilst they eat their biscuits, are still full of people who are prepared to work with children for free, bang tambourines, do messy play and generally by their actions promote a loving community.

Nice post Hardgoing.

But the people complaining never think to get off their arses and sort their own, more 'acceptable' group out, they just prefer to moan about what someone else is doing in their free time for no recompense.

It is always they should do it differently and never what can we do as an alternative. In my area there was no toddler group. Mums got together, hired a hall and got on with it-it is still running today.
If I was a church volunteer giving up my time I would just walk out and do something else if people think they can go to a church group, in a church hall run by church people and not get a religious side!