AIBU to want DSD to spend Christmas day with us ?

[Tillyscoutsmum]

I was going to post on step parenting but I'm feeling stupid brave, so here we go ......

DSD will be 8 this Christmas. We have her one night in the week, every other weekend and half the holidays. DH assumed when he and his ex first separated that they would alternate Christmas. However, when he asked about it (6 years ago), his ex got quite teary and said she didn't feel she could be apart from her dd on Christmas day.

So, for the last 6 years, we've had dsd from about the 19th/20th December, gone off to visit grandparents etc. and then dropped her back to her mum on Christmas Eve afternoon. We have our own "Christmas" with her at some point during those days.

DH is now starting to feel that he would like to have her for one Christmas Day whilst she still believes in the whole "Santa" thing. She has two younger half siblings here and we feel that she would really enjoy the whole Christmas morning present opening etc. with them. At the moment, she spends the day with her mum and her grandparents. There are no other children and, from what she has said, its a bit of a staid affair.

DH doesn't want to rock the boat. He and his ex have a very amicable relationship and everything works well. On one hand, he feels that we have our dc's and therefore get to enjoy the whole "magic" of Christmas and if his ex didn't have her dd with her, it would be quite miserable. At the same time though, he does want to experience it with dsd and, in reality, there is probably only a couple of years where she will still "believe".

What do you think ?

I think that if you behave very badly then you lose all rights to any consideration, because you've shown none for anybody else. Naturally, such a parent should still continue to see the children and have proper access to them because the children have a right to the parent, not the parent has a right to the children.

I do agree with you that the wronged party should not be able to withold contact on the grounds that they have been wronged, but Christmas day is special and it just seems so harsh to me that someone who did nothing wrong loses out on having their dc, so I think for that one day, it's okay to have the dc, on the proviso that the dc are happy and get to see their other parent frequently too.

I meant that the wronged parent would have them on Christmas day, but not necessarily the mother. It could just as easily be the father, if, for example it was the mother who behaved badly and left. I think that some people have taken my posts to mean that the mum should get the dc at Christmas no matter what, which is not what I meant.

Christmas Day is just as special to the 'wronging parent' as to the 'wronged' one. It's usually the mother who has custody whether she was instrumental in the breakup or not and it's usually the mother who decides therefore where the children go and when.

If the other parent is a good parent - however wrong they were to their partner - they should have equal rights in having the children at Christmas and alternating seems a lot better to me than shunting the poor kids to two places on Christmas Day.

I think that's the fair way of dealing with it; the breakup is really not the issue and the wronged parent doesn't have more rights for Christmas Day or any other.

... and neither parent has rights to the children.

I'm not sure. Ds1 is 11 and said he doesn't want to spend Christmas with his dad for several reasons.

His dad has never done the Santa thing and tho he no longer believes, he likes the pretence

He has a little brother and wants to see him open his gifts

His dad never has him in school hols, never takes him on holiday and will drop weekends if busy socially and not make up time.

His dad had strop 2 years ago basically demanding ds1 go to his.

Given the fact ds1 doesn't want to go, that ds1 wants to be at home, that his dad doesn't ever have him for any extra time tho offered, we stood by ds1 and his wishes.

If ex can't be arsed to make effort thro rest of year or at birthday time, the why would ds want to miss on christmas at home with me, step dad and his brother (plus another brother or sister this year, due any day )

Tho ds does go to his dads boxing day morning each year

It is usually the mother who has custody, but that is usually because the mother is the primary carer. If she behaves badly in the marriage, then she is not putting her dc first any more than a father who behaves badly. I feel it is wrong for a mum to opt out, keep the dc and then deprive the dad of proper access.

I don't think you can be a good parent if you are a selfish person, and it is selfish people who behave badly during their marriages, because they don't consider or care about the impact it has on the dc.

Truthfully, I don't care how special Christmas is to the 'wronging' partner. If the dc wanted to be with them then that should be respected because it is their choice.

My dc have often spent Christmas day in two places. I don't think they felt shunted.

Obviouly, if one of the parents isn't 'into' Christmas then it becomes a non-issue because there's no point the children spending Christmas Day there. If the children want to, then that's what they want.

I think that if we have children, we owe it to them to put aside whatever anger/jealousy we feel and just do what's right for the children. It isn't about the breakdown of the relationship at all and even if a partner has brought about the end of a marriage, they have the right to have their children on Christmas Day if they are so inclined and will make it special for the DCs.

Some people are excellent, loving, caring parents - but not such great partners. They shouldn't have their time with their children assessed by the 'wronged' parent who has no superior rights. I understand that the person who would have stayed in the marriage might feel sore about the DCs going to the other parent for Christmas Day but that's about their feelings and nothing to do with whether it would be good for the DCs. Selfish people stay in marriages all the time, like limpets. Stamina beyond what's sensible doesn't win any special awards and nor should it.

Everybody makes whatever arrangements they think will work for Christmas. It's a difficult time for many and somebody is often left disappointed. The DCs are hopefully oblivious of that and the best parents work like fury to make it so.

I agree with everything that LyingWitchInTheWardrobe has said. I cringe at the thought that the DC is a possession to be fought over with 'rights' and the parent who was 'wronged' has the greater right. Who is to decide which parent was 'wronged'? I think that the one who who believes they were 'wronged' is much too involved to take an objective view.
I can't stand all the posts that you get when the DC has 2 loving parents and you get my baby, my DC and even worse my DC-my rules.
It is difficult when you have split families and most likely someone is going to be disappointed, but it shouldn't be the same one every year. If it is your turn to be disapppointed you have to hide it.
Obviously if one side 'doesn't do Christmas' it is nice and simple-keep to the one that does.
A DC has the 'right' to 2 loving parents. I can't see that parents have 'rights'-they have the responsibility to keep their fights away from the DC, even if they feel very badly 'wronged'.

Karma... I've read back a little bit and I think the crux of it, from your posts, is that you'd change from day-split to alternate Christmas Days IF you thought that it was best for the DC. The thing is, you WOULDN'T, would you? If it were in your power as the 'wronged' partner to decide for your DC and you believe that the 'wronging' partner has no say because they left the marriage... you'd get your way all the time...

When I refer to 'you', I'm talking generally, btw, not specifically about you.

Can I suggest the obvious - not quite judgment of Solomon, as in sawing her in half but nearly............ Cold you see it in you heart to put aside adult grievances and have DH ex to stay Xmas eve? Then step dd could have Xmas with her mum and dad ?
Step mum could leave after brunch if you really don't want her around but hey- it's Xmas . She may not have " no one" but Xmas with your parents when you are an adult, knowing your child is elsewhere having a magical time - not good.

Lying, that implies that the 'wronged' partner would always do what they wanted even in the face of evidence that their dc would be happier with something different. I don't think that's true. Most people would do what they thought was best for their dc. The 'wronged' parent wouldn't change their views to take account of their ex's feelings, but they would change their view for their dc, if they came to the conclusion that changing would be in their best interests.

I do see it would be problematic in situations where the rp is the sort of person who generally cuts off access and makes it hard for the dc to have a proper relationship with the other parent. But in that case the rp isn't putting the dc first either.

I think that people should leave the word 'wronged' out of it. The parent may feel wronged, but the DC has 2 equal parents-not a right and wrong one.

When they are adult they may not agree with your assessment of 'right' and 'wrong' and they may see it entirely differently, therefore it is much better not to give them your version in the first place.

exotic, at no point did I ever say that a parent should discuss their feelings on this with their children. The dc should be entirely unaware of discussions between former partners. Sometimes it is very easy to assess who was 'right' and who was 'wrong', but yes, at other times it is not, which is why I've always said that this is not a 'solution' for everybody.

I have used the word 'wronged' for want of a better one in the course of this discussion, but of course it is not a word which should be used to children about their other parent.

Karma... I think that some 'wronged' parents don't exactly lay down the law to the DCs but they do say, sometime around July... "Oh we'll have a lovely time on Christmas Day, we'll do X and we'll do Y and on Christmas Eve we'll do Z and... and.... Won't that be lovely?". What are the DCs going to say to that?

It's quite insidious really, a less-than scrupulous 'wronged' parent can do this quite easily and justify it to themselves that a) they deserve it because they weren't the ones who left the marriage and b) because they're going to give their DCs a lovely Christmas.

Where does the other parent fit in? They don't even have a chance to 'bid' in some cases. It's terribly wrong. We've moved well away from the OP's scenario now, that worked out beautifully, but I'd say that they're probably very much in the minority. I think that some 'wronged' parents kid themselves that they're acting in their DCs best interests when really, they can't face the prospect of not having the DCs at main event of the year.

XH and I spend Xmas morning together with our children. Then the whole of the two families spend the rest of the day.

All terribly civilised. I often don't start drinking until 9am.

Although we don't yet have new partners, we have agreed that once they come on the scene, they can either join in our tradition, or not be involved at all. The kids like us together, and all grandparents to be around, so that's why we do it.

Absolutely agree with ExoticFruits on the issue of categorising a parent. DCs may well grow up and wish that things had been different. The split they can cope with, it's the aftermath that causes the anguish and children are not stupid, they can decipher pointed remarks and between-gritted-teeth comments very quickly.

Mac... That sounds just fantastic!

Lying, I think you are right that people need to be scrupulous, but I do think that if the children are having a great Christmas, then they are not suffering simply because it is the same every year. Cutting the other parent out of the whole of Christmas would be wrong and I do like Nac's idea of keeping the day as close to what the dc would have had if the parents hadn't split. That sounds lovely.

I think that some 'wronged' parents kid themselves that they're acting in their DCs best interests when really, they can't face the prospect of not having the DCs at main event of the year.

Exactly-easy to justify it to themselves. I didn't say that you would say it Karma-DC are very good at picking up what you 'don't say'. You have to be very careful.
NacMac has the ideal IMO.

Just wanted to add my 'great post' to the list for littlemiss.

I don't think it's as simple as saying there is somehow a "wronged parent". I was the one that ultimately ended the relationship with my XP (well, he walked out in a temper and I refused to let him come back) and he would have undoubtedly stayed in the relationship, but it was the result of 8 years of unhappiness and selfish, unreasonable behaviour on his part. Neither of us is more "wronged" in that scenario.

The children live with me 100% of the time and have very little contact with him (at his choice) so they stay with me for Christmas.

I think, OP you should be sensitive and not too pushy. This is DH's job to discuss it with his ex AND DD. Whatever is agreed - it is important that DSD feels ok with it and that believes her mum is happy for her. If this is not so there will be alot of negative feeling for DSD which will leave her confused and possibly feeling anxious for her mum. DH does have a right to see her on Christmas Day but 1 step at a time.

When I originally split from XDP our DS was 2. He never asked to have him for Christmas Day/ Christmas Eve but I suggested from the first year that he come over every Christmas Day to either spend time at our house with DS or take him off til lunchtime to DS's/ his mum's. That way he would get to spend time with him on the big day. Luckily I have enjoyed years of spending Christmas Eve, Christmas Day morn and night with DS. I often wondered why xDP never asked to have him overnight during those days - although has tradionally collected him Boxing Day and would have him a couple nights then. Knowing that it was fair and that DS would benefit from it and that it would come one day, I decided last year to prepare myself and confront XDP asking him if he would like to have him Christmas Day lasyt year. He was very surprised and thanked me for asking. I found this strange as he possibly was worried about asking - whether that is to save my feelings or because he didn't wish to have a confrontation, I am not sure, but he decided to wait until this year as it would tie in with when he visits his mum, so she could spend day with her DGS too. This has been good for me as I reallly had to go out of my comfort zone to ask him, hoping that he would say no don't worry but of course knowing that he wouldn't. I have had over a year to get used to this arrangement. When we put it to our DS recently I asked him "would you like to spend Christmas Day with Dad and xxx this year?" wearing my enthusiastic voice, "that would be nice wouldn't it - you haven't spent the whole of Xmas Day with Dad for a long time have you" to which he replied "yeah Ok that'd be a change" sounding very unphased by it all. Inside I am dreading it but I knew this was to come. He is 11 now and so needs to spend more time with his Dad.

What has grated me a bit is that more recently XDP's fiancee, who I get on with fine dropped off DS one evening and came in and started quizzing me on the arrangements. She pushed to collect him Christmas eve and bring him back Boxing Day. I was so gob smacked by her pushyness that I just said, erm....well, yes, I suppose so. She kept justifying it with "well xxx hasn't had DS on Christmas Day at all before....bla bla bla....in an ultra assertive voice. This was extremely irritating. If XDP had asked me directly then it would have been completely fine but I think Step parents interfering is a little insensitive. It made me feel quite angry and I generally get on well with her. Your DH has the right to see his daughter but I think that it needs to come from him and the arrangement has to be agreed and respected by all.

Good luck