AIBU to want DSD to spend Christmas day with us ?

[Tillyscoutsmum]

I was going to post on step parenting but I'm feeling stupid brave, so here we go ......

DSD will be 8 this Christmas. We have her one night in the week, every other weekend and half the holidays. DH assumed when he and his ex first separated that they would alternate Christmas. However, when he asked about it (6 years ago), his ex got quite teary and said she didn't feel she could be apart from her dd on Christmas day.

So, for the last 6 years, we've had dsd from about the 19th/20th December, gone off to visit grandparents etc. and then dropped her back to her mum on Christmas Eve afternoon. We have our own "Christmas" with her at some point during those days.

DH is now starting to feel that he would like to have her for one Christmas Day whilst she still believes in the whole "Santa" thing. She has two younger half siblings here and we feel that she would really enjoy the whole Christmas morning present opening etc. with them. At the moment, she spends the day with her mum and her grandparents. There are no other children and, from what she has said, its a bit of a staid affair.

DH doesn't want to rock the boat. He and his ex have a very amicable relationship and everything works well. On one hand, he feels that we have our dc's and therefore get to enjoy the whole "magic" of Christmas and if his ex didn't have her dd with her, it would be quite miserable. At the same time though, he does want to experience it with dsd and, in reality, there is probably only a couple of years where she will still "believe".

What do you think ?

The OP has me a little confused to tell you the truth. Why has a father allowed this to be the "norm" for so many years? But that aside there is stll no need for both families not to enjoy xmas if adults acted like adults instead of children themselves in these situations and acytually talked. While I can understand that bitterness and hurt can hinder things at first not for years and years surely?

I think the OP's husband was being nice and didn't want to leave his ex with no children at Christmas.

But thats my point, there can be a compromise.

Before I had DS 7 years ago do you think I wanted to spend some of my xmas with DSS's mum and her children? I entered a relationship with DP knowing he had a child but didn't expect the ex and her family to have to be a part of it. But I soon found out that DSS's mum IS a part of it and as the adult I sucked it up and got on with it. After having DS I now see DSS's extended family as DS's family, they are forever intertwined and that is what happens when entering a relationship with a person who already has children.

Well said Voddie - I have posted before. I have had 20 years of this and we have kept it very amicable and alternated Xmas every year. DSS does it himself now even though he can go wherever he likes!
For the record my DH and his ex HATE eachother but at combined family gatherings nobody would ever know.
And that is how it should be - end of!

This whole thread has turned into which parent has the last say, which parent's decision trumps the other parents decision.

If it doesn't harm the DC to spend every goddamn Christmas with one parent, why should that be the mother??

I hear posters saying 'Well, she spends the majority of the time with the DC, so she should spend Christmas with them too'

You could look at it the other way....mum gets the majority of the time, so why can't she share at Christmas?

What has always concerned me about your posts karma is your justification for your arguments, good parent/bad parent labels.

Children pick things up...other posters have said this too. Your posts insinuate children are nothing more than a commodity or a prized possession of the mother, with whom she will share with the XP if she feels like it??? The children are not the belongings of the mother!!!
To view them as such, and to treat them accordingly is wrong...full stop!!

Even a family court will grant alternate Christmases to seperated parents.

The dynamics of sharing Christmas or not are not what concerns me in your case..it is your reasons for doing so:

If she left him, then it seems unfair that she also gets to deprive him of every Christmas with his dd. Otoh, if he left her, then it would seem unfair to me to also leave her without her dd on Christmas day. If it was a mutual, falling out of love and no ones 'fault', then I think it would be fair to alternate. This is clearly saying that the children's routine at Christmas is based upon who did what wrong in the relationship and who was at fault!! The childrens Christmases would be totally different had the parents mutually agreed to split. THIS SHOULD NOT BE OF ANY CONCERN TO CHILDREN!!!

if there is an innocent party in a break up, it seems wrong and cruel to me to make them be without their child at Christmas, when it wasn't their behaviour which caused the relationship to end. Putting the parents 1st and foremost again, most parents who have split up ime put their DC first....not themselves (unless they are particularly bitter...no good for the DC either)

where a child is too little to have an opinion, then if one parent is going to miss out, I don't think it should be the one who would have stayed in the marriage, but for the behaviour of the other person. Again, coming back to who is to blame...let's label parents bad cop/good cop...again no good for DC. Also, if DC are too young to speak, that doesn't mean you can conveniently choose not to do what's right for them, based on the fact that they couldn't tell you. That's just weird! There are many instances where parents do what is right for their children without waiting for their children to verbalise their feelings, and I'm sure you must be aware that much of the time, even children who can verbalise their feelings do not want what is good for them.

I'm sad for you that you were put in that position in the first place and think that your ex, if he had anything decent about him at all, wouldn't have taken your child from you at Christmas, given that he was the one who behaved badly. So if a parent behaves badly, he is now no longer a decent parent.... It is their child...not just hers.

I must admit, that when a person has an affair and leaves the spouse and dc for another person, I find it very hard to think of them as a decent person or as a good parent. I am strongly of the belief that good parents don't cheat on their children's other parent. Again...good cop/bad cop... A partner who cheats can, and quite often is still a good parent. Parent and Partner are not the same thing. You do know this don't you?

It is a selfish attitude wrt the ex partner. But if my husband had an affair and left me, I'd not be inclined to care about what he wanted. It's not about what he wants, it's about what is best for the DC!!!

I did say that the person who cheats/behaves so badly that the relationship cannot survive is the one who should miss out on getting the kids for Christmas, ...He should miss out because he behaved badly towards his wife??? That is punishment, as hard as I try, I can't read that any other way.

I'm not saying that people are wrong to leave relationships, only that if you behave badly, you should be the one to lose out, not the person who didn't. Again, reiterating what you have already said...justifying punishing the parent who dared to upset the mother...making her the more powerful parent.

It's not using the dc to punish the ex - it's not considering the ex's wishes and it is putting your own wishes above those of the ex, that is true It is using the DC to punish the ex, in fact you are only considering the ex and how your actions will affect him, not thinking of your DC.

The hours of labour with no painkillers, the bleeding nipples from bf, the endless sleepless nights, and the not fully recovered vagina give me the edge I feel exotic wink ha ha ha ha ha..I see this was a joke, because no right minded mother would think this way ha ha ha

I stand by my view that when someone has an affair, they stop thinking about their children's stability and security and what is good for them. For the duration of the affair, they become utterly selfish and focussed only on their own feelings and desires, to the exclusion of everyone else's. For me, that is completely incompatible with being a good parent. A good parent wouldn't put their dc in this position.

If you believe that a parent who cheats on their partner are a bad parent, please let me remind you that there are countless ways of being a bad parent, countless ways...and tbh, how can concentrating on your ex and his feelings (as shown above) to the exclusion of your DC's feelings be seen to be selfless??

You appear to spend alot of energy and time thinking about what your ex deserves, what your ex did, what your ex should miss out on...virtually every one of your posts has detailed some reference to the ex's bad behaviour towards his ex partner, not his children and how you feel he should pay for these misdemeanors in the past relationship...yet I have repeatedly asked what about the children, what do they deserve, and received replies like ' If the children are too young, then you can please yourself (which would be punishing the ex more with his children I gather?)

Instead of waiting until your DC are old enough to realise there is an alternative to spending Christmas with their mother every year...why don't you ask them if they'd like to spend Christmas with their father if he is happy to have them on Christmas day?? Frightened of the answer??

One day, you will realise that you cannot use your DC to punish other people, or stave off loneliness/hurt/pain. One day, they may ask you why you were so selfish. I hope you don't answer with 'Well your father was blah blah blah blah blah blah and he didn't deserve it/I was the wronged party' This will only serve to confirm to your DC that during their childhood, it was your feelings that mattered more!!

(In case your wondering...the right answer would be...because I felt it was the best thing for you DC!! I thought I should point that out, you may find it helpful.)

Excellent post little and speaking from experience - they make up their own mind in the end and vote with their feet!

Agree with everything you said Little.

Little, brilliant post. (I think you should breathe now )

voddie - your post about spending part of Xmas with your DSS's mum and her family struck a chord. I never imagined I would be in a situation where I would be regularly mingling with my DP's ex and her family at regular social events, including Christmas. The first few times I found myself at extend family gatherings where they were there I felt really resentful and sulky about it. But in fact...DP's ex's family (her new partner and her parents, as well as her) have gone out of their way to make me feel welcome and included in these events, and now I actually really enjoy spending time with them all. (In fact I'd go so far as to say that DP's ex and I are on very friendly terms, and I actually much prefer her parents to my DP's parents, and have a better relationship with them...and probably see them just as often if not more)

It really amazes me that there are so many separated/divorced couples who can't behave reasonably or at least put on a civil front for their children. It all comes back to little's post - putting the children and the future first, instead of always harping on back to the past and who hurt who and letting that dictate everything.

Everything you say little comes back to the idea that you think it is better for the children to alternate Christmas day, and everything I say comes back to the idea that I don't think it makes any difference to the children. I don't think children are affected at all by spending Christmas day with one parent rather than the other, so long as the dc see their other parent too, over Christmas.

I agree it is harmful to deprive children of access to their other parent, to bad mouth the other parent to or in front of the children, or to do something to suit yourself knowing that it will negatively affect your children. I'm sorry, but I don't think that spending every Christmas day with one parent is a negative thing.

You seem to believe that I favour the mother at all times. At no point have I said that. The labour comment was a joke.

I do think that being a good parent, involves being a good and kind partner, because children are affected by atmosphere in the home. Of course there are lots of other ways too, in which a person can be a bad parent, but it doesn't make this one less valid.

If your children are babies, of course you do what you think is best for them. I don't honestly think a baby cares where it spends Christmas, so long as it is cared for, so it might as well be with the parent who didn't opt out of the relationship. If you opt out, then you accept as a consequence that you won't be with your kids 24/7. The innocent party never made that choice and I feel it's wrong to impose it on them. It's not making the choice for a baby because they can't speak and express an alternative opinion (and I do resent that implication), it's making the choice because a baby doesn't actually care. When they grow older, you still might over rule what they request, if you think it isn't in their best interests, but that is a bit different from ignoring their requests purely because you don't like what they want. At no point have I said I would do that.

If this was my situation and my dc asked to spend Christmas with their dad, of course I would do my best to make that happen. I probably would ask them at some point, if they would prefer to do something different, while making it clear that whatever they said was okay by me. But I think it's a non issue - it would just be their norm to be with in one place on one day and another place, the next.

Basically all I am saying is that, so long as the kids are happy, it is okay imo to also factor in your own wishes too. It's only wrong if you factor in your own wishes regardless of what you truly think is best for your children.

Do you really think a child would be upset by spending every Christmas day with one parent and every Boxing day with the other? Because that is all we are disagreeing about - at no point did I ever say it is okay to stop access etc as a means to get at an ex. I also said that my ideal in this situation would be to split the day somehow.

I would never say or imply to a child that one parent was good and one parent was bad. I don't know any people who tell their dc what they think of their ex, so this idea of painting one parent in a bad light is not relevant because a good parent is careful not to, even if they privately hold that opinion.

If not being willing to be without my dc on Christmas day (for as long as they were happy with this arrangement and didn't want to be elsewhere) makes me selfish, then so be it.

I am sorry karma but I think it does make you selfish - if you assume that the child doesn't mind where they are - what is wrong with taking the view that the absent parent might want to see his/her child open her presents on the proper day.
In the case of my DH his ex left the marriage with their 18 month old son. My DH was completely devastated at the loss of his child and his marriage. NOT his fault but he then had to tread on eggshells to get access for more than 1 day a week.
Unless this has happened to you, you can have absolutely no idea what is like to wake up without your smiling child EVERY day - never mind Christmas. Being a mother does not automatically make you the senior parent.

Our trauma is over now as DSS is 21 - and as I have already said, choses to live with us most of the time.

But I will never forget how heartbroken he was at the time and how desperately he missed his son.
If you haven't been there - you don't know.

iamamug I never said that being the mum made me the senior parent. (only when I was joking about labour, which I honestly wasn't saying in any seriousness). I think you have misunderstood my post.

I think that if you behave so badly that you break up the family (mother or father), then you know you will see less of your dc, because time has to be shared. That is desperately sad for the parent who didn't choose to break up the family (like your DH). Why should someone like him be denied his child on Christmas day, because his ex decided that she didn't want to be part of that family unit any more. It would be kinder imo to let the baby be with your dh on Christmas day, and she has the next day. I do think it is terrible to be denied access to your own child through no fault of your own and I do believe that it is a child's right to see both their parents whenever they want and not when only one parent says so. But Christmas day is so special to many people, that if your family has been broken up and it wasn't your fault, for the ex to keep your children on that day is an additional kick in the teeth.

Obviously, once the kids have an opinion, then theirs is the one which should come first.

What is a parent supposed to do then karma if they don't love their partner anymore? If they don't want to be with their partner anymore, but still want equal and fair access on Christmas days? What is a parent to do if they want to spend Christmas Day with their children, if they want to share in everything their children do as much as possible, if they want to continue being a large part of their DC's lives, but they no longer want to be with their partner?

Should they just accept that if they break up the relationship, then by doing so, they are also forfeiting the opportunity to spend alternate Christmas Day's with their DC? Should they just accept that by instigating the break up, they have acoording to you lost all moral rights to have their DC on Christmas Day until the children are so used to spending Christmas with one parent that they can't imagine it with the other and don't want to leave their parent lonely/sad etc are older?

Is the answer that the parent chooses?? To remain in a loveless marriage for fear of being denied the opportunity of experiencing Christmas Day with the DC, or spend every Christmas for the foreseeable without their children?

When you say you believe it is not fair that the wronged person should share Christmas, why do you believe this is so unfair?
I don't understand what is so horrendous about spending Christmas day without your children every other year? Are you speaking from experience karma? I alternate Christmas with my XP, so I spend every other Xmas with DD, not every single Christmas.

Honestly, what is so horrendous about it? After all, as you have said many times on this thread....it is only one day!!

I think that littlemisssarcastic had a great post. It isn't about the adult at all. You are an adult-you deal with the pain and put the DC first. Little is dead right when she says:
One day, you will realise that you cannot use your DC to punish other people, or stave off loneliness/hurt/pain. One day, they may ask you why you were so selfish. I hope you don't answer with 'Well your father was blah blah blah blah blah blah and he didn't deserve it/I was the wronged party' This will only serve to confirm to your DC that during their childhood, it was your feelings that mattered more!!

If you have really put your DC first then they will appreciate it when they are older and your relationship will be enriched.
You can go for the selfish 'I am a mother I must have my DC every Christmas', but it is detrimental in the long term.

Break-ups happen all the time and I'd say that mostly, the only 'innocents' are the children. Mothers are always given custody of the children and some think that gives them power to wield over their ex's, whether they were the leaving partner or not. The mother usually maintains the home - the family home or a different one and the children live there.

I read a book recently where a warring couple couldn't decide on custody and the judge decided that it wasn't fair that the children were treated as 'parcels' to be shipped hither and thither. She decided that the children would stay in the home and both parents would spend alternate weeks in the family home.... I thought it was a terrific idea.

OP... I'm very glad that things have worked out well for you. :)

Also agree that littlemisssarcastic's post was excellent; it's not about the parent AT ALL. You can't safeguard your own feelings in the relationship but you must do all you can to keep your childrens' feelings protected, no matter what, and NOT involve them in grown up issues that they don't want or need to hear.

I agree -it isn't about the parent AT ALL. It is only about the DC.

If you look at the OP's dsd, she has spent every Christmas with her mum so far. Now she is older, she has expressed a wish to spend Christmas with her dad. She (presumably) isn't feeling that her mum will be sad and lonely without her, because her mum has made sure that her dd felt free to express her wishes and has agreed to the change without making any fuss to her dd about it. So even though Christmas with mum is her 'norm', the idea is not so entrenched that she feels inhibited from recognising that an alternative exists and hasn't been guilt tripped into sticking with her 'norm'. Now I don't know the reasons why mum always had dd at Christmas. There would have been some years before the other dc came along when dsd was the only child of both parents. But the end result has been fine.

If you are okay being without your dc on Christmas day and have made arrangements that you are content with, then that is good, but if the wronged parent would be upset (and I'm not saying they should express any of this in front of the children) then it does seem harsh to me to force them into accepting something that they didn't choose or want.

Just because I would keep my dc on Christmas day (if I was the person who hadn't opted out), it does not follow that I would guilt trip my children or make them aware of my feelings. That being the case, I think my dc would be fine.

If you believe that alternating is putting your dc first (rather than your ex) then that is a parenting choice you will make for them, but if you feel it makes no negative impact for them to spend Christmas day with one and Boxing day with the other, then it is perfectly okay to make a choice which is different to the alternating one.

Karma... I don't think it's a question of "If you are okay being without your dc on Christmas day...", I think that's quite inflammatory really. I don't think there's a parent in the land who wouldn't chose to have their child(ren) with them on the 25th... just that it's ridiculous to keep a child, on THAT day, from the other parent just because the other parent might have left the relationship. It's not about you, it's about them. The other parent would also relish seeing their child's eyes light up on THAT day - and the child has the right to that also.

Whether you (general) were the leaver or the left is completely immaterial - it's not about YOU and there is no guarantee in any relationship but there is an inherent understanding when you have a child that you will put the needs of that child FIRST and above your own hurt feelings.

It wasn't meant to be inflammatory. Perhaps a better choice of words would be 'if you are reconciled to being without them'. I think it's inflammatory too, to say or imply that if you don't agree to alternate Christmases, then you are not putting your children first and would also be the sort of parent who would guilt trip a child/not listen to them/bad mouth the other parent and openly blame them for the demise of the relationship. None of those things are true of me, just because I believe it is not detrimental to spend the day with one person rather than the other.

I think that when people behave very badly in relationships where they have children, they are automatically not putting their dc first, or they wouldn't behave so badly.I wouldn't be happy sending them off for Christmas to someone who hadn't put them first when it came to something as fundamental as their security and stability at home. Obviously this isn't true of all people who separate and I have always said this isn't a one size fits all idea.

I do think that if you behave very badly, then you lose the right to have your feelings considered over much by the person you hurt. To not consider his/her feelings doesn't mean that you are not thinking about your children's feelings.

To answer your other point, would the other parent not see the children open the presents from them? Don't most people tell the dc that Santa delivered to mummy and daddy's houses, not just the one?

I think perhaps with alternating, there is always a sense that someone is missing, whereas if you always do the same thing, it just is the norm. I have been thinking a lot about this in the past few days and the comments made here. If I did this and then the experience of it seemed wrong or my dc were unhappy, of course I wouldn't pursue it just because it is what I would prefer personally. I think my ideal in this situation is to split it, so the dc see both parents on the same day but if that cannot happen, having considered all that people have said, I just don't believe it would be detrimental to the dc to be with one parent every year and disagree with the assertion that it isn't putting the dc first. I don't think this would be a big issue for my children at all.

It is only not putting the dc first if you truly believe that alternating is the best thing but decide not to do that, to suit yourself.

As far as the DC is concerned there isn't a 'wronged' parent and if one of the parents is making out they are wronged they should be ashamed of themselves. Whatever argument you have with your ex you keep it firmly to yourself and never let your DC hear it. Being a parent means being an adult and dealing with your own pain without involving your DC.

Where have I ever said that a parent should make their feelings known to their kids?

Karma... But you (general, not you specifically) are not the arbiter and your children are not your possessions for you to dole out and decide their locations at Christmas as you see fit. The reasons for the breakdown of the marriage/relationship are neither here nor there as far as children are concerned and the father of the child(ren) has as much right to spend time with them as the mother does.

The only bit I'm struggling with in your post is that you think that the 'wronged' parent has the right to dictate when the other parent has custody of the children. It's not within the 'wronged' parent's gift to decide that, not at all. The fact that that person was hurt by the other person is really irrelevant as far as the children are concerned.

Most of the posters on the thread have managed to come up with some pretty fair compromises regarding Christmas, demonstrating that it's possible to work things out with their ex-partner, regardless how much they hurt them, for the sake of their children. That's how it should be.

Karma You also said this "I just don't believe it would be detrimental to the dc to be with one parent every year and disagree with the assertion that it isn't putting the dc first. I don't think this would be a big issue for my children at all."

But you don't mean it, do you, because this would mean that either parent could have the children... you mean that you would have them, being the 'wronged' parent. Is that right?