AIBU to want DSD to spend Christmas day with us ?

[Tillyscoutsmum]

I was going to post on step parenting but I'm feeling stupid brave, so here we go ......

DSD will be 8 this Christmas. We have her one night in the week, every other weekend and half the holidays. DH assumed when he and his ex first separated that they would alternate Christmas. However, when he asked about it (6 years ago), his ex got quite teary and said she didn't feel she could be apart from her dd on Christmas day.

So, for the last 6 years, we've had dsd from about the 19th/20th December, gone off to visit grandparents etc. and then dropped her back to her mum on Christmas Eve afternoon. We have our own "Christmas" with her at some point during those days.

DH is now starting to feel that he would like to have her for one Christmas Day whilst she still believes in the whole "Santa" thing. She has two younger half siblings here and we feel that she would really enjoy the whole Christmas morning present opening etc. with them. At the moment, she spends the day with her mum and her grandparents. There are no other children and, from what she has said, its a bit of a staid affair.

DH doesn't want to rock the boat. He and his ex have a very amicable relationship and everything works well. On one hand, he feels that we have our dc's and therefore get to enjoy the whole "magic" of Christmas and if his ex didn't have her dd with her, it would be quite miserable. At the same time though, he does want to experience it with dsd and, in reality, there is probably only a couple of years where she will still "believe".

What do you think ?

I completely agree theredhen

I think if you were to ask the children what they would really like it would be to be with their mum & dad at their main home opening presents together. But of course in most families that break up that isn't going to happen.

He has other children to enjoy his Christmas with so although I see where you are coming from you already have established routines around the Christmas period that all 3 children share & presumably enjoy. The actual Christmas day is the routine that the mum & dd share & enjoy together.

I wonder what dsd thinks? My guess is she probably loves being able to have two Christmases - one with you beforehand and then one with her mum and grandparents. If it were me I would be creating some special traditions for her around those days - why not have Christmas PJs early for instance and even open some presents - there are usually so many it is great to have an excuse to stagger them (if your kids believe in Santa you can spin them any old guff and it will still be magic). I think it's rather nice to be able to stretch Christmas over several days - much nicer than those who do half day at one house and half at another - no offence, but that sounds like the worst of both worlds if you ask me. I think when the alternative is for dsd's mum to spend Christmas with no children (while you can always count on having a houseful) the kindest thing is to carry on as you are, especially if dsd isn't complaining.

RedHelen - your post to the OP makes it sound like you think the OP is suggesting this for her DH's benefit - she isn't, you know. She wants to do it for the DCn's benefit.

I think you should have a whole other Christmas day on one of the days DSD is with you. All the children could open their presents that day, you can just tell them that santa said he would come early for them.

My aim would be that in years to come dsd and indeed your own dcs say "But we always go to the panto/the ice rink/watch Polar Express on the 23rd" whenever a small change to the tradition is suggested. I actually think the days before Christmas are much nicer than those after - why not wait until dsd is with you to buy the tree and decorate it.

My parents were divorced and my father re-married. It meant we had Christmas Day with my Mother, then went to Dad's on Boxing Day - we liked this as we had, effectively, two Christmas Days (three, even, as we then went on to my Gran's another day).

So my suggestion would be don't get too focused on Christmas Day itself. You can still celebrate on Boxing Day and make it reallty special.

I think this thread seems to be looking at it purely from the POV of what is fair for the parents, but it is what is right by the child that matters.I think she should be with her mother on xmas day.is there any possibility you could have her mother and GPs to stay with you over xmas?

WHY hsould she be with her mother? she has TWO parents and has spent the last 6yrs at her mothers for xmas, surely its about time she had xmas with her dad?

I totally agree 4madboys but I am getting the impression from this thread that some posters believe the mother's wishes to spend Christmas Day with the DC will always trump the fathers. What he wants does not matter if the mother does not share his wishes.
Some mothers feel it is perfectly ok to completely override either what is best for their DC or what the father wants without even considering it, so long as they get the DC where they want them on Christmas morning.

It's all very well to say when the children get older they can make their own minds up about where they want to go for Christmas, but children who have not been given the opportunity to spend Christmas day with their fathers because of hurt/bad feeling/upset on the mothers part, or because the mothers would be devastated not to be with them on Christmas day will pick up on this and will more than likely refuse, since they don't want their mum to be alone/hurt/sad/angry. Children pick up on this far more than maybe some mothers give them credit for.

karma A man who has been unfaithful to the mother of his DC can still be a decent father. He may not have behaved honourably to the mother, he may have left the mother, but that does not mean he is automatically a bad father.
You can fall out of love and leave your partner and still want what is best for your DC.
As I asked earlier, if I was unfaithful to my husband and left him, should I leave the children with him and forfeit every Christmas/DC's birthday/Easter Sunday?
Why should my DC suffer for the sins of their parents?
You are saying that if a man leaves his wife, then he is not deserving of having his children at Christmas simply because he instigated the split!! I find that an astonishing attitude to have. Children are not the possession of the mother!! They are a product of a partnership.
If I was a man and my partner told me that if I left her, she would deny me the opportunity to see my DC on Christmas day because I'd instigated the break up, I'd think very very carefully about having a child with a woman who was prepared to drag our DC through her pain and hurt towards me!! That is so unfair on the DC.

Having sex doesn't make him love you and a baby wont make him stay. Only you seem to believe it should??

I am still waiting to hear if you believe women who finish the relationship, possibly deeply hurting their husband/partner should forfeit their DC at Christmas/Birthday's/Easter too, or is it just reserved for men?? Maybe you think women who leave their partners should leave the children with their father as a matter of course since they were the one who broke up the partnership too??

It is a horrible thing to do to use your children to punish your XP and it doesn't benefit your DC, if they are your only reasons for denying contact on Christmas day.

littlemiss I did say that the person who cheats/behaves so badly that the relationship cannot survive is the one who should miss out on getting the kids for Christmas, when the dc are small and until/unless they express a wish to spend the day with the other parent.

If you are unfaithful and leave your husband, why should he then suffer the loss of his dc at Christmas because of what you chose to do. My view is not one that favours the mother no matter what - it favours the innocent party, when the dc are too young to have an opinion or would be happy with either parent.

Easter etc is a bit different. For many people it does not have the significance of Christmas for children - no Santa etc.

I'm not saying that people are wrong to leave relationships, only that if you behave badly, you should be the one to lose out, not the person who didn't.

I don't think the children suffer here - for them spending Christmas day with one parent rather than the other would be their 'norm'. they would only suffer if that parent didn't respect their views as they grew older or deprived them of access to their other parent generally.

And yes, I do think being a cheat and a liar and a person who would actively deceive the mother/father of their children is incompatible with being a good parent.

It's not using the dc to punish the ex - it's not considering the ex's wishes and it is putting your own wishes above those of the ex, that is true, but it is only wrong if you ignore the opinions of your dc.

Other posters have said they liked having two Christmases. There is no reason why that couldn't happen if the child spent every Christmas day with only one parent.

I don't think having a baby should make anyone stay, but it should make a person behave decently. If one person wants out, then they should be honest with their partner, not lie and deceive and get the next partner lined up while the first one is still believing that everything is fine.

YANBU. It is quite simple-they are equally her parents and her mother has been lucky to have so many Christmases-it should be fair. (I never know why mothers seem to be more equal)

The hours of labour with no painkillers, the bleeding nipples from bf, the endless sleepless nights, and the not fully recovered vagina give me the edge I feel exotic

I think I would leave it, TBH. It's great that things are reasonable between DH and ex, and since she doesn't seem to have any other children, I suspect she would put up a huge fight (I think I would in her position) and things could turn sour.

The most important thing is that you and DH get to see her ample during the year. I don't think it's a good thing to place too much emphasis on one particular day.

I'm really laid back when it comes to sorting out when xh will see dd - he can see her as much as he likes, ring her as much as he likes (he doesn't ever bother), but I wouldn't agree to him having her overnight on Christmas Eve.

He hasn't bothered to support her financially, he won't do any childcare, school runs, homework, sort out clothes, activites - none of the donkey work, so I don't see why I should miss out on one of the best nights of the year with her. If he was sharing the load with me then I'd probably feel differently.

The rest of Christmas is highly negotiable though. I don't see any problem with sharing the day - and if i were in Tilly's shoes that's probably what I'd be trying to negotiate.

karma If you honestly believe that the children do not suffer when their mother acts out of spite towards her XP, and uses the DC to make her XP suffer by missing out/losing out on seeing his DC for Christmas day, then nothing I can say will change your mind or make you reconsider. I can see that now.

To suggest that a woman is more equal has the edge as a parent because she carried the baby for 9 months, gave birth and breastfed the baby is bonkers imvho. The father could just as easily have suffered sleepless nights too.

Your posts radiate the message loud and clear that as far as you are concerned, mothers are superior parents compared to fathers, and their decisions should always always be the final word.

I feel mothers who think of and treat their XP's as second rate parents because of wrongs they have done to the mother, and refuse to send their DC to the XP for Christmas because in some weird way they feel it is justified because the XP treated the mother poorly are using their DC as emotional blackmail to punish the XP. (I hope these mothers realise it is their own children who are being punished by this too.)

If it matters so little to the children where they spend Christmas day when they are very young, why not just alternate it?? Oh yes, that's right, because the mother decides that her XP isn't worthy and doesn't deserve to see his DC on Christmas day because of the way he treated her!!

Mothers are not superior parents to fathers just because they gave birth.

If you want your DC to grow up to believe their father is only worthy of their time if he placates his angry ex constantly, then there is nothing I can do to make you think about it, but I do..and will continue to feel extremely sad that there are mothers who draw their DC's into adult situations, adult emotional pain and hurt that the child needn't be aware of...ever.

Your comments have saddened me karma.

I shall now go back to banging my head against my brick wall, because your mind is made up, and you come across as very unlikely to change your mind. I hope your DC grow up to realise that a great number of people have been crap partners, but remain good parents.

Personally, my DD deserves more than to be used as a battering ram or a stick to beat my XP with, or to remind him every single year at Christmas of how shoddily he treated me. (I imagine that many many fathers denied the opportunity to see their DC on Xmas Day because of past hurts and pain they have caused the mother spend a large amount of the day feeling sad and contemplating this.) I do not need my DC to remind him of that, I am an adult and if I choose to, I can remind him of that myself.

My DD deserves the opportunity to spend Christmas with her father as much as she does to me, irrelevant of what my XP and I may have done/said to each other in the past. My DD deserves that, not my XP...my DD, and that's what Christmas is all about imo.

I always had Christmas day with my Mum and Boxing Day with my Dad. Worked out well for us, but in these circumstances where the DSD has half siblings, I think it would be good for her to have Christmas with her siblings sometimes.

karma You also said Other posters have said they liked having two Christmases. There is no reason why that couldn't happen if the child spent every Christmas day with only one parent.

The difference is, most parents agree these terms..not have the terms dictated to them by the mother over past misdemeanors the XP has committed against the mother, but because it is what suits both parents and that is fine imo.

littlemiss I was joking about having the edge because of the labour etc, hence the wink at the end. Perhaps it didn't come across well in type.

The difference between you and me is that you think it will damage the dc to not alternate Christmas and I do not. We are only talking about Christmas day, not any of the other days that make up Christmas. I don't think it is punishing a child if, for them, the norm is to spend the day with one parent rather than the other. It's like when parents share custody and dad always 'gets' X days and mum Y days. It just becomes the routine for the dc and doesn't have to be given any more significance in their eyes than that.

I agree it would be harmful if access generally was witheld or if the views of the children were actively disregarded.

It's not about acting out of spite towards the ex by making him miss out on seeing his kids at Christmas. I would not use my dc to get one over on an ex. It is about the innocent party not being made to suffer more. At no point have I ever said that a dad is only worthy if he placates his angry ex or that children should be made aware of the discussions between the parents. For me, it is that X has been the one to behave badly, so shouldn't make it worse for his/her former partner than it already is.

I think you are reading things into my posts which aren't there.

I think you should acknowledge that there are an awful lot of second rate parents out there and in cases where one parent (mother or father) has done all the work throughout the year and the other parent has not been active and involved, then I don't think it is fair to either the rp or the child for the nrp to 'get' Christmas.

A child can still have the opportunity to experience Christmas with the other parent, just on Boxing day, for example. Child gets two Christmases. Hardly deprivation.

Fair enough to all those who've worked out solutions that suit them. I never said this was a one size fits all resolution and I do acknowledge that rarely is one person completely right and one completely wrong.

In the case of the OP, I am torn. Having more dc, doesn't mean that the dad misses his dd less. Otoh, it would be very hard for the mum to not have her only child with her.

If this was me, I would try to split the day, if possible.

'WHY hsould she be with her mother? she has TWO parents and has spent the last 6yrs at her mothers for xmas, surely its about time she had xmas with her dad?'
because the mother is the main caregiver, she has her 6 days a week.It is to all intents and purposes the child's home and presumably where she feels most comfortable.I don't think the parents' rights come into it.it's all about the child.has she been asked?

I know you have a lot of answers but its always worked out really well for us for DSD to spend christmas eve and up to early afternoon and one parents then christmas night and boxing day with the other and then swap the year after, my SD has never been worried about going from house to house, we dont let toys come from one to the other because mums house eats things but she has never been concerned and always has been the sort of kid to play with EVERYTHING at once so she isnt bothered - to my mind thats not selfish because she happy although I know some wont agree

YANBU christmas is a time for family and Mum should be happy that you consider SD to be part of your family and dont cut her out - if SD would like to spend time with you then the option should be there for her. If she says no though I think you have to accept that shes happy with her arrangements as they are

Well.... thank you again for everyones responses. To update, DH and I discussed it and he had decided he would speak to dsd's mum this weekend about it. In the meantime, dsd was with us last night (as usual) and told us (completely unprompted) that she had asked her mum whether she could stay over with us on Christmas eve and have Christmas day with us and her mum had said that if that's what she wanted and if we were ok with it, then that would be fine . DH obviously needs to speak to her to confirm and sort out the details but it looks like we might get to have a Christmas day with her after all . DSD and DD seem so excited. They were both busy writing their letters to Santa last night ...

spiderpig8 sorry but just to clarify, she does not spend 6 nights a week with her mum. She spends 6 nights one week and 3 nights the next (we have her every Wed and alternate Fri, Sat & Sunday nights). She does spend slightly more time with her mum but she definitely has a home and family here as well. She has her own room, her own stuff, she comes on holiday with us etc. DH is very much a co parent - he does homework with her, takes her to school, goes to Harvest Festivals, parent's evening, school assemblies, hospital appointments etc. I really think it is fair that he gets to have a Christmas morning with her

Thanks for the update - it's always nice to know how things turn out. Your dh and his ex sound like lovely parents.