To wonder how the U.S can claim to be a civilised society whilst there is such a thing as Death Row?

[BupcakesandCunting]

There's probably been threads about this already...

But I just don't see how capital punishment can be an underpin of what the world regards as a civilised, modern society/country. What they did to Troy Davies yesterday can't be reversed. His supporters are still trying to prove his innocence and are confident that the gaping holes that they are finding in the case will prove it. So what will he get? A posthumous pardon? Yeah, great stuff that, America.

The Bible also says 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'. Jesus stopped an execution, so it always surprises me if Christians support the death penalty.

I love it when people selectively use parts of the bible to support an argument.

And why in this day and age is anyone taking any notice of the bible?!

I agree with Winniebella - there are monsters on death row that deserve nothing more than a swift death. Vile, inhuman and dangerous in the extreme.

Troy was not one of these predators....the death penalty was not deserved in this case. However, I believe that it does have a place. Read some of the cases on death row and I suspect some of you may change your minds if it were your children that met an unimaginably violent end for the pleasure of another.

If you believe in an eye for an eye, why stop at execution, Mona? Man rapes your 5 year old. The eye for an eye response would be the right to rape him or his child, surely? Isn't this what they have in Iran? Wasn't there a case recently where a victim of an acid attack was literally going to have the perpetrator's eye after she lost hers? He was going to have acid poured into his eye as his punishment. Do you want to live in a state like Iran?

Execution and all other forms of corporal punishment is nothing but state sponsored revenge. Yes, if somebody harmed my child, I would want to rip him or her to fucking shreds with my bear hands. Because I would want him to feel the hurt my child felt and I felt. That is vengeance and a fairly normal human response.

The state is not, and should never be, about vengeance. Depriving someone of their liberty, such that they cannot live the life of a normal human being, whilst ensuring they are not within society to do harm again is enough. Your 5 year argument in a complete red herring. Nobody here thinks short sentencing for such crimes is right, and I am in favour of whole life tariffs for certain offenders.

You will find that many of the perpetrators of the worst crimes are damaged people with mental illnesses. They have compulsions to do harm, they don't stop to consider the consequences. Some don't have any conscience. They don't have a "stake" in "normal" society that will counterbalance their urges. They are certainly not going to stop and think, "Hang on, this will give me the death penalty if I get caught, best not."

Just to add, if a perpetrator did have a demonstrable mental illness, there is no way they would get the death sentence in this country, because state sanctioned murder of the mentally ill is a very slippery slope no politician in the UK would want to slide down. They'd be banged up in Broadmoor for life, as is the case now.

bear hands. I wish I had bear hands. But of course, I only have bare hands

Texas have decided that in the future prisoners won't be able to request a last meal. Article about it in the GUardian here

YANBU. Haven't read the whole thread but I don't believe any country that still has the death penalty can call itself civilised. Add in the large amount of religious fundamentalists in the US, a whole swathe of people believing in creationism, children and mentally ill on death row, people getting life sentences for stealing a biscuit, and the fact abortion, religion and gay rights are so important within politics and to me there is a lot of work to be done. Not that I think the UK is perfect by any means but there is an awful lot wrong with the US. Not the people individually but as a whole.

Bupcakes I quite like the Bible- mind I also like some bits of the Qur'an and the Bhagavad Gita and the Guru. And Khalil gibrain but most of all
Vibekananda

Which is why I identify with the Quaker path, which seems to reflect most of what I like best about myself (though I do dance and drink as well)

TPSS that's severe MH- personality disorders etc. there's plenty of research suggesting that prison inmates have high prevalence rates of milder issues such as undiagnosed ASD, develoipmental delays, addiction (comes under MH banner)- the hole gamut frankly. I remember the SLT Lead telling me about something she ahd aprtipcated in that found a majority of inmates ahd some language irregularities (a signpost for more comprehensive assesssments being needed) though I don't have references for that one.

There's some stuff out soon by Simon Baron-Cohen about evil being related to zero empathy: now I am about the association that has been made between that and ASH (he is very famous for some of his ASD stuff, though equally- well pop psychology seems to describe it, just IMO) but zero empathy is a clinically relevant state. I am researching empathy and ASD for my MA so particularly fascinated (although unlike many I don't think ASD equates to zero empathy) and it's amazing how pervasive that simple deficit is. DS3 has loads of empathy though differently rpesented but ds1 doesn't and machiavellian is the word: we hope to channel it effectively in him (politician!!!!) but without a supportive family who know swhat he could ebcome? Indeed we can only try, no guarantees.

Sancti let's take a look at some of the crimes in the bible which call for a death penalty:

worshipping other gods
blasphemy
being a foreigner who gets too close to the tabernacle
sex before marriage while engaged
adultery with a married women (not men, obv.)
homosexuality
cursing a parent
persistent disobedience of your parents
picking up sticks on a Saturday

Any of those seem like reasonable capital crimes to you?

catgirl Quentin Crisp said Britain had a benevolent system and vicious people but America had a vicious system and benevolent people. Quite accurate. Strange the US is constitutionally secular but fanatically religious, UK kind of opposite-ish

I hadn't hear that before alice but I like that........quite true I think

If someone threw acid on my face yes I'd want the exact same doing to them and would take great pleasure in doing it myself. the world is a cruel place to live and no one is going to all agree on the same things.

Obviously people will say that what if that person is innocent. What about people like trace Connelly or Ian huntly pr steven baker, roy whiting, myra hindley? Do they deserve the right to live?

Like fuck they do.

I think it's one thing to say all this. Entirely a different thing when you have a living human person stood in front of you and you get to throw acid in their face.

So you'd take great pleasure in deliberately blinding someone. And this makes you the better person because......?

In pakistan if someone shoplifts they have their fingers choped off. If someone Is raped they have their genitals cut off. I don't normally with certain laws but some I do. Like I said an eye for an eye.

This makes me all the more grateful not to be living in such a brutal regime such as pakistan.
Two wrongs do not make a right.

And we all know what Ghandi said about that...

whatallthe cases such as this I wonder?

where the mother thought she was watching the murderer of ehr three child die when the courts already had but ignored evidence that seems to exonerate him?

And almost vomited at the man on the row with the mental age of 8 who was raped: whetehr or not that happens now my son is likely to peak at that level and dfrankly- actually no I don't have words.

Nah. See I don't trust authority enough to give them that faith in their decision making. More, why would anyone enduring that much trauma wish to force other people into that? Why would I want another mother to lose a child- how does cauing pain to anohter innocent person even out any balance? I'd want anyone who murdered my child to live an very long life on hard labour.
Of course if you let em near them I would lsoe control- someone tried to scald my ten eyar old last year and it was a blessing the support team (we do street carnivals) got there before me: but that's natural and as someone says the key phrase is losing my mind: for that brief moment, when cowbag was waving a steaming cup if coffee towards my bot, my mind was lost adn we should not ever allow people with a lost mind to decide justice.

(That article is long BTW but I would ehartily recommend making the time to read it)

Absolutely Kat

In Libya some poor woman was slaughtered for sharing the same surname as gadaffi- si that OK too?

BTW are you aware of the in depth workings of the Pakistani court system? Is it one you would have faith in?

Myra Hindley is dead BTW.

And no I would not throw acid in anyone's face: I am better than that. I insist on being better than that.

Tequila WTF? I am so anti death penalty it's not even funny! You got the wrong person there mate. NOTHING in my book gives the satte teh right to commission the death of another in a situation where they can be rendered non dangerous by means of imprisonment. I am actually even slightly annoyed that what I presume to be an accident caused my name to be associated with that notion- especially given my post very much earlier that I would not even be able to be friends with a death penalty supporter in RL.

God Sancti, that article is so chilling to read. Especially as I recognised his name from the start so knew what was going to happen.