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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder how the U.S can claim to be a civilised society whilst there is such a thing as Death Row?

204 replies

BupcakesandCunting · 22/09/2011 12:14

There's probably been threads about this already...

But I just don't see how capital punishment can be an underpin of what the world regards as a civilised, modern society/country. What they did to Troy Davies yesterday can't be reversed. His supporters are still trying to prove his innocence and are confident that the gaping holes that they are finding in the case will prove it. So what will he get? A posthumous pardon? Yeah, great stuff that, America. Hmm

OP posts:
BupcakesandCunting · 22/09/2011 22:11

I don't know MrManager :(

OP posts:
ThePosieParker · 22/09/2011 22:14

SMA....Each named State , as far as I know, has executed someone/had someone on death row, since 1976.

TequillaMockingBird · 22/09/2011 22:18

smallwhite the Supreme Court has never required the death penalty for any crime. However they have approved its use for specific crimes (this is known as a guided discretion ruling, i.e. that judges are allowed to do something but not required), and they have also ruled that certain forms of killing people on death row are not 'cruel and unusual punishment'. So basically they gave the green light for people to get death penalties, and have set up the ways in which they are allowed to be killed.

States have the option of actually using the death penalty or not. But the actual permission to kill people comes from the federal level of the judicial branch (based on the Constitution and federal laws). I.e. it is the White House, Congress, Senate and Supreme Court (the highest national levels of the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government) that allow all of this to happen.

TequillaMockingBird · 22/09/2011 22:20

b&c, I don't know him either and that is not me. I may or may not be a twat, I will have to check with friends Wink

I might nc back in any case, but try knocking 4 letters off the suggestion from reeling.

TequillaMockingBird · 22/09/2011 22:27

Just realized that in my last post I said Congress when I should have said House of Representatives. The US Congress is obviously made up of the HoR plus Senate. Sorry about that.

noblegiraffe · 22/09/2011 22:29

The Supreme Court suspended the use of the death penalty between 1972 and 1976 across the US for violating in the Eighth Amendment (cruel and unusual punishment), so they could probably do it again if it was ruled unconstitutional.

TequillaMockingBird · 22/09/2011 22:33

Noble, that's right. But then in 1976 they said "oh but you can kill people for these types of crimes, and by the way here is the methods you should use to kill them". This was based on the Constitution and laws passed by Congress at the national level.

theinet · 22/09/2011 22:34

I don't agree with the death penalty, but am always puzzled when people say " how can America still have the death penalty , i don't understand" - as clearly haven't been to America and or examined the ethos and history of the country.

It is a strange concoction - at once a super modern, 21st century nation, but in lots of respects, at the same time, terribly more "old fashioned" than many European countries. "An eye for an Eye" attitude, revenge, and a frontier spirit still predominate in many parts - the people are ultra conservative with a small c , and decades behind us when it comes to social enlightenment, despite the racial melting pot it has been and supposedly liberated values. Many people are terribly under-educated, overemotional and excitable, and prone to easy manipulation by crowd pleasing politicians and the rich and powerful.

I expect you could say much the same about the UK, it's a general human trait, but at least we have a more enlightened consensus when it comes to the death penalty. Taking lives like this can never be right.

America is a country i admire, and love to visit (and have done often) but i could never live there.

TequillaMockingBird · 22/09/2011 22:34

(can't believe I can still remember these details from my US Constitutional Law course)

SanctiMoanyArse · 22/09/2011 22:35

his was what I meant PP- Nevada etc compared to Texas etc.

Some palces with it don't use it but others such as Texas do- a lot (and they have the fastest conviciton- death toime so risks multiply presumably)

ThePerfectShitStorm · 22/09/2011 22:43

YANBU.

In my (probably not very well informed) opinion, the death penalty is a direct result of politics bleeding into the judiciary and religion bleeding into politics. State attorneys are politicians. They need to be seen to be tough on crime. If their electoral base is formed of fundamentalists (anti abortion, supporting gun ownership, supporting execution), then they need to pander to the instincts of this group. To be re-elected, you can't be seen to be lenient on killers, and to appear competent, you can't be seen to admit that your office got it wrong in prosecuting its case in the first place. You'll fight tooth and nail to uphold an unsafe conviction, in the face of damning evidence to the contrary, just to save face.

The Guardian said this about Federal involvement:

"Al Sharpton, who attended the protests in Jackson, said he would be pressing for new legislation to ban death penalties in cases relying only on witness statements.

But it is unlikely that a new law overturning the practice could be passed in Washington. It is convention that individual states have control over death penalty rules, and the federal government can only lead by example in its own execution practices; it does not generally have the power to tell states like Georgia what to do"

Have no idea if that's an accurate summary of the situation, but it sounds pretty lame if it is. "Convention" sounds like cop out.

Whoever said those convicted of murder should be used as human guinea pigs must live in a very dark place. I would not want to be inside your head.

As for the child rapists etc. I imagine there's a good chance they were the abused once. Executing them once they have been damaged and gone on to do damage to others - does this prevent further child rapes etc? I seriously doubt it.

ThePosieParker · 22/09/2011 22:46

This was my source. here and wiki!!

noblegiraffe · 22/09/2011 22:50

'Evolving standards of decency' means that across the US, executing those with an IQ below 70 has been illegal since 2002 and executing those under 18 at the time of the offence has been illegal since 2005.

We can only hope that standards of decency evolve a bit further.

billysolloxx · 22/09/2011 22:51

i not sure how anyone can describe the world as civilized dosnt anyone watch the news? Murderers rapist child killers you cant give these people a slap on the wrist, you cant apply normal rules to people like this which is why england should bring it back for exceptional cases.
Look at baby p's mum she dosnt deserve her life for what she and those animals did.

SanctiMoanyArse · 22/09/2011 23:07

Shall I resist teh urge to make comments about Wiki TPP {wink] (my nold Prof used to say- we have to fail people who use Wiki, So don't. Follow the links at the bottom of the Wiki page to find someone else quoting it instead Wink)

SanctiMoanyArse · 22/09/2011 23:10

Billy who suggested a slap on the wrist?

I'm all for life meaning life, or even hard labour at a push: but only reversible sentences becuase of miscarriage of justice (the Lynette White case is big news here).

A high percentage people in prison seema to have some Sn (including MH) or literacy issues; executions cost big bucks so even aside from the death ethics, spend the money saved on decent proper intervention for those at risk groups (or even just enough MH workers) and change things before they escalate.

BupcakesandCunting · 22/09/2011 23:16

I can't even address billy's post because it appears to be written by a thesun.com spambot...

OP posts:
Whatmeworry · 22/09/2011 23:21

No.

Whatmeworry · 22/09/2011 23:22

...they can't be seen as a civilised country (curse the iPad slip)

billysolloxx · 23/09/2011 01:02

BUPCAKES. Must be sad been so paranoid, to think someone could have a different opinion to you Oh the humanity!

M0naLisa · 23/09/2011 01:06

So if someone broke into your house, raped you and your family then got a 5 yr prison sentance but out in half and free to rome the streets you would be happy? Or if someone killed someone from your family, you would be happy to let them rome the streets? I know i wouldnt be.

As the bible says

An eye for an eye!

M0naLisa · 23/09/2011 01:06

Thats to the ones agreeing with OP

TequillaMockingBird · 23/09/2011 07:20

M0naLisa, the Bible also says that people should be killed for blasphemy, that that you should be exiled for wearing clothes made of more than one fabric. Would you like to put those into our laws as well?

You seem to be arguing with an imaginary friend who is suggesting that child rapists should get out in a few years, since no-one else is saying that. What many people are saying is that killing people is not a healthy part of society.

SanctiMoanyArse · 23/09/2011 07:35

So if someone broke into your house, raped you and your family then got a 5 yr prison sentance but out in half and free to rome the streets you would be happy? Or if someone killed someone from your family, you would be happy to let them rome the streets? I know i wouldnt be.

As the bible says

an eye for an eye

turn the other cheek

Or the one I prefer to use daily as my guide 'This is my commandment, that you love one another as I
have loved you.'

Loving 'nice' people would be easy; IMO Jesus meant especially the ones who are hardest to love.

And no, I wouldn't want someone killed by teh state if they murdered my family: I might want to harm them myself but that is hugely different and why we don't allow grieving parents onto the juries of those who committed crimes against their famillies!

SanctiMoanyArse · 23/09/2011 07:39

Or

----------------
Proverbs 20:22 Do not say, "I'll pay you back for this wrong!" Wait for the LORD, and he will deliver

(been eyars since Uni and a good theology denbate; I fear however that won't be with people who take a single line and fail to look at everything else that surrounds it. ThA good part of the point point of Jesus was that he moved us on from Judaism to Christianity and the new Commandment. Otherwise we'd still be Jewish no? or Messianic Jews.

(Sorry Atheists / Agbnostics / generally bored people, I shall now desist)

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