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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder how the U.S can claim to be a civilised society whilst there is such a thing as Death Row?

204 replies

BupcakesandCunting · 22/09/2011 12:14

There's probably been threads about this already...

But I just don't see how capital punishment can be an underpin of what the world regards as a civilised, modern society/country. What they did to Troy Davies yesterday can't be reversed. His supporters are still trying to prove his innocence and are confident that the gaping holes that they are finding in the case will prove it. So what will he get? A posthumous pardon? Yeah, great stuff that, America. Hmm

OP posts:
ThePosieParker · 22/09/2011 14:38

I am pretty sickened by your comments Squeaky. Criminals in China have their organs harvested. Trouble is they don't get a fair trial either. Seems to me those that hand out the harshest punishments have the worst judicial systems. I wonder what would be deserving of losing a lung?

ThePosieParker · 22/09/2011 14:39

SMA.....well I only saw your arse....twas not so SanctiMoany!! (I was behind you)

AbsDuWolef · 22/09/2011 14:39

Really awful. Have been reading more about the case on BBC News and the NYTimes, and I really can't understand how Georgia's justice system could allow a man to be killed when there are so many questions and doubts as to whether or not he actually did it.

Apparently in Texas though, a man received the death sentence for dragging a black man chained to the back of a pick-up truck along a road until he died.

WineAndPizza · 22/09/2011 15:17

Bunting, totally agree, watching your child be killed in front of you and being powerless doesn't bear thinking about. Especially when you believe they are innocent.

I was reading an quote about this by a man who had spent years lecturing against the death penalty - apparently he used to be asked a lot 'well how would you feel if it was your child who was killed?' And he would reply 'And what if your child killed my child - what would you have me do then?'

"An eye for an eye leaves the world blind."

WineAndPizza · 22/09/2011 15:17

An quote? Oops.

Original poster
BupcakesandCunting · 22/09/2011 15:47

"Bunting, totally agree, watching your child be killed in front of you and being powerless doesn't bear thinking about. Especially when you believe they are innocent."

I can't stop thinking about that. It's played on my mind all day.

The mother of the officer sounds a vengeful person, too. I wonder if Troy's death has brought her any peace? Or whether she still feels the same about her son's death, but just with the added bitter taste on the tongue that another man's death would bring.

OP posts:
WineAndPizza · 22/09/2011 15:52

I know what you mean - you would hope that after 20 years you would have found a way to find some peace that didn't involve someone else having to die. I find it really hard to understand the concept of someone else's death having a positive impact on your emotional wellbeing.

AbsDuWolef · 22/09/2011 16:13

I was thinking the same thing Bunting - she was quoted at saying something like she's wanted peace for 20 odd years. But do you really think that having the man who ma/may not have killed your son executed would do that, while you watch?

MiseryBusiness · 22/09/2011 16:24

Apparently at Troy Davis' appeal someone said it was rejected 'because he could not prove his innocence''

How fucked up is that!? Very dangerous thinking imho

SanctiMoanyArse · 22/09/2011 16:30

(Yeah sorry TPP, i got pretty excited to be out with Real People LMAO)

Misery really? how terrible is that! Am not surprised though.

Done custy.

HedleyLamarr · 22/09/2011 16:31

SanctiMoanyArse
"What's that stat- a poor person has never been executed in Texas"

IIRC Texas executes more people than the other states combined. Yesterday they killed a delightful fellow named Lawrence Russell Brewer for the racially aggravated murder of James Byrd. He and his two accomplices dragged him behind their vehicle at the end of a rope. Governor Rick Perry has signed off 236 executions in 12 years.

onagar · 22/09/2011 16:36

OP, you're entitled to your opinion that capital punishment is wrong. I disagree, but yours is a valid viewpoint.

But your claim that the US is barbaric is a bit weak when your own country employs soldiers to kill people.

Is it that our armed forces only kill forriners? does that make it different?

SanctiMoanyArse · 22/09/2011 16:36

Sorry yes- screwed that up- meant a RICH person has never- as in, plenty of poor people are but....

Blush
MiseryBusiness · 22/09/2011 16:40

We actually employ an armed force for protection not to 'kill people' what a ridiculous thing to say and it has nothing to do with capital punishment. They are not the same thing.
And yes, killing a man who has pretty much been proven innocent is barbaric!

onagar · 22/09/2011 16:53

MiseryBusiness, countries that have capital punishment have decided that society needs to be protected from certain criminals and passed laws saying that it is ok to kill/execute people "if there's a good reason as determined by the proper authorities".

We employ armed forces in much the same way. We passed laws saying it is ok to kill people. "if there's a good reason as determined by the proper authorities".

I am okay with that, but more 'innocent' people are killed by soldiers than by executioners. Even if the soldiers are very careful it's inevitable.

So to say that the US is barbaric and we are not is hypocritical. Either both are or none.

MiseryBusiness · 22/09/2011 16:59

onagar - So when a soldier is out on patrol and comes under contact and kills someone as a result, that is the same as sentencing a man to death when there is more than enough evidence to suggest he did not comit the crime for which he is being killed for?

What a load of shit!

Although, I am probably not the best person to argue this point with because I am biased when it comes to the armed forces so maybe IABU but I will never agree that those two things can compare.

ThePosieParker · 22/09/2011 17:01

What happens in civilian life and in a war cannot be compared, surely.

noblegiraffe · 22/09/2011 17:20

What I really don't understand is that Georgia is in the Bible Belt. But Jesus stopped an execution. How on earth do they reconcile their actions with their beliefs?

Georgia also lied. They said they would only execute if it was beyond doubt that Davis was guilty. But the clemency panel was split 3-2. Surely 'beyond doubt' would require a unanimous verdict? 3-2 isn't particularly sure at all.

onagar · 22/09/2011 18:00

MiseryBusiness, Soldiers leave this country and are transported to other countries for the purpose of using armed force to secure an objective. They know and those sending them know that they will probably be killing people or helping other soldiers kill people.

Remember that I'm not criticising that. I think in some cases it is acceptable and that those who must do it are sometimes brave people doing a difficult job.

The crucial point is that we passed a law saying that in the right circumstances it is ok to kill - just as the US have. We accept that a government has the right to make that determination. Therefore if the US are barbaric than so are we.

If you want to pretend that soldiers only shoot in self defence that's up to you, but if you say it out loud people will think you are foolish.

ThePosieParker "What happens in civilian life and in a war cannot be compared, surely"

You have a point of course. In world war II we were fighting for our survival so not a lot of choice there. However as I say the crucial point is we have accepted in the uk that a government can choose to have someone killed for what they deem sufficient reason.

There may be an argument that capital punishment is not the best option, but those saying that ANY killing is barbaric must remember that we kill too.

MiseryBusiness · 22/09/2011 18:08

I still think that the two things cannot be compared.

If this country didnt have an armed forces we would be very vunerable You may not agree with any war that our country is currently involved in but in the past and possibly in the future there may be a need for us to defend ourselves for our survival, maybe a bit extreme but it could happen.

We can survive pretty well as a society without capital punishment.

PetiteRaleuse · 22/09/2011 18:12

Shocking article in the Daily Mail this evening here

Disgusting.

beachholiday · 22/09/2011 18:16

The biggest single predictor of whether someone in the USA will be given a death sentence is the race of the person who has been murdered. If the murder victim was white, the accused is far more likely to be given a death sentence.

And then there's the race of the accused. All the way through the system, the likelihood of being given a death sentence increases if someone is not white. Prosecutors are more likely to go for a death sentence if the accused is not white, people who are not white are less likely to get a plea etc.

Even if someone is not against the death penalty itself, how can a system which is so inherently racist be permitted to continue?

onagar · 22/09/2011 18:19

beachholiday, you may well be right. Do you have any evidence of that though? Only someone claimed the other day that the US executes more people than any other country in the world. Everyone was nodding at that until we checked and found out it was completely untrue.

MiseryBusiness · 22/09/2011 18:20

PetiteRaleuse - I'm with you, that article is disgusting. Then again it is the daily shit mail! Shock

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