...to be cross with this doctor's presence during the birth?

[chickenchops]

Really not sure if i am or not.

I was induced and three hours later given an epidural by the on call anaesthetist. I didn't really like him. He was cross I was skipping the peth injection, got very cross with me when i moved slightly when he stuck me in the back with a needle (without warning), was just overall very abrupt and rude. Oh well i thought... I will never have to see him again.

My labour stalled and I got exhausted. Cue OB coming with ventouse. Just after she arrived, so did the anaesthetist.

He did not speak to me. He did not check any equipment. He did ask midwife if she had to use any boosters. (yes she said. one. although she did not disclose that i was finding the epidural less and less effective and had put me back on gas and air after 2 hours it was sited). the OB got her kit out and got between my legs. Anaesthetist then took position just to her right to watch the birth.

No one explained why he was there. he did not tell me. he made a few inappropriate comments i could have done without and then just well, watched.

Several things went wrong with my birth/aftercare. I ended up writing a letter to the hospital pointing out some aspects of my care that really were wrong and also mentioned that I was quite unhappy that this guy just showed up and hung out between my legs. they were quite surprised I was unhappy about this as "but chicken chops, he's a doctor". I wound up in a meeting with them this week and again expressed how distasteful i found this. they were again gobsmacked and said no one had ever complained before as most women simply don't mind.

really?

I'm not british and grew up in a strict evangelical christian household. I am wondering if i am being precious about my dignity to due how i was raised? Or, would you have found this offensive too?

for the record, the story has changed several times as to why he was there but no one disagrees that while he was there he did nothing.

so... aibu?

If you're happy with having lots of people observe your birth then fine, should be your choice.

Other women don't want anyone who isn't medically necessary observing, then that should be their choice too.

Was this an NHS delivery? Op says she's not British.

chickenchops what are you hoping to gain out of this? What's the point as in what are you looking for?

You can't undo anything about the birth, so is it for compensation, an apology (you're clearly not going to get that), a complete overhaul of systems and procedures? (doesn't sound like that will happen either, though the doctor might remember to say hello in future with a smile).

What outcome will satisfy you?

I think the doctor saying hello with a smile and refraining from derogatory comments would be a great improvement, and to the benefit of all the future patients (delivering women or not) under his care.

Courtesy and professionalism is not a 'little detail', medical professionals are afforded a great privilege in tending to people at their most vulnerable and should not forget that.

And it is very easy to do so when you deal with it every day. An occasional reminder is no bad thing.

It is imporant MBJ but to be a skilled doctor doesn't always mean they are the most personable. It does help of course it does. This one is very close to my heart as my Dad had a doctor with a fabulous bedside manner (going back to the 70's now though) and charmed him into thinking his pains were nothing to worry about, he had cancer and he later died.

We moved to a very rude, abrupt GP, sorry for digressing, but he even told me he thought I'd become promiscuous if he prescribed the pill, but he knew I'd get it from another doctor so he'd give me the best care he could. I always had BP checks each time. He was so bliddy rude.

Later had another very thorough rude GP who told me "We like out mothers to have a painful birth so we know what is going on". I was confident and older then and told him he could like what he wanted I was keeping all options open.

A bedside manner is important but not as important as having the medical profession really being thorough and effective. After what happened with Dad I can cope if theyre a bit on the brusque side. But do take on board your comments too as it's best to have both.

I am a doctor mitmoo and I am fully aware that not all medical professionals have great bedside manner. However, I expect anyone I encounter to be polite, including the cashier at Sainsbury's. So much more so, a professional who is given access to our most private moments.

IMO, doctors who are not courteous actually do the precession a great disservice, as we need to be trusted with very personal information and situations. Not dealing with this in a sensitive manner makes patients wary and mistrustful and everyone's job harder.

And to be frank, all this, 'Ah, but he/she is really good. It doesn't matter that he/she was rude/aggressive/derogatory etc, etc' Is a terrible excuse. Minding your P's and Q's have nothing to do with bedside manner, they are just common decency and remembering that the patient you are dealing with is a person.

I think the presence in the room of this man is a separate issue to how he conducted himself when there.

It may well be that his presence had a purpose but he did not need to 'watch the action'

Anaesthetists normally stand at the patients head.

I'm sure that he wasn't get a kick out of the birth but was curious, watching out of interest BUT your consent should have been asked before he did this because it was not a necessary situation.

"I'm not british and grew up in a strict evangelical christian household. I am wondering if i am being precious about my dignity to due how i was raised?"

If you are christian, stand for you beliefs and values. If they were giving you alternative stories as to why he was there then it sounds to me as if he didn't need to be there (at least not in between your legs) ...What were the comments that he made?

I am also not English and a strong christian, if I felt something was going by my beliefs I would have said also. If it doesn't bother other people that's there problem but this bothered you and it would bother me to.

I read earlier that you're a doctor MBJ just making the point it's not the be all if someone forgets to say hello nicely. He doesn't seem that bad, putting his hand on Dad's shoulder to tell him he had a lovely baby.

Yes she should have been told that the epidural was coming in, (not sure about that as getting it wrong can have some extremely serious consequences), so I can't see him just jabbing her without preparing her to be honest, I don't buy into that part, nor him shoving her around like a piece of meat to get her into position. It's extremely important that you're still when they put the epidural in. I can't see anyone whose deliver 100s of babys not ever warning the patient that the epidural is being inserted and to keep still.

Not sure about that bit at all.

It's very arrogant of a health professional to think that just because you need their professional help you should tolerate anything else. I'm staggered at the women on this thread who think birth can be gawped at by just anyone. It should be on strictly 'need' only.

It's not necessary to have lots of people there. When it is those people should have respect for a woman in pain, scared, exposed and vulnerable and not make it worse. All this crap about is fine if that's how you feel but not fine if OP (or any other woman) doesn't feel comfortable. We're not talking about necessary intervention/presence. We're talking about idle curiosity.

Toothbrush No one has said "just anyone" should be allowed to gawp. Can you show me where that has been said as I've missed it. Thanks.

I think given your latest post OP, that you've hit the nail on the head. He's used to being able to wander in to a birth that his friend is attending and to be able to observe. Which is fine, if you're asked if you mind, but if you're not asked, then it's not OK.

I think that from his reply: "if, that is in fact how i treated you, then yes i am sorry" coupled with the fact that he's not had a complaint before and that he ran off after the meeting, he's probably mortified that he's upset a patient without thinking. If no-one's ever complained, he's not realised that anyone's minded and it may be that he's taken your comments on board. Which, whilst it doesn't bring back any kind of dignity to your birth or take away the feeling of being gawped at or treated unnecessarily roughly, you may well have saved other women from the same.

I wouldn't like to feel that anyone was there spectating - I had an epidural and forceps birth, a 3a tear, retained placenta and PPH. The anaesthetist definitely wasn't down at the business end - in fact, the anaesthetist didn't come back in until after the birth to get me to sign the consent for the spinal to go into theatre.

Mitmoo I am that you don't believe the OP when she says that she wasn't warned the epidural was going in. Just because it's important that it's done properly, doesn't mean that he did remember to forewarn her.

If there is no medical necessity for a person to witness a procedure, that person does become 'just anyone' and permission should be obtained for them to witness it. If after the fact the patient realises that they were not asked and request an explanation, and there is none which is satisfactory (certainly seems to be the case here as the story keeps changing) an apology should be made. Simple.

I am sick and tired of people telling women to 'suck it up, it wasn't that bad really.'

We have no idea of the particulars of this situation really, and whether he was a good anaesthetist or not. All I know from the OP, is that she felt uncomfortable and that the presence of this particular member of staff, in the position in which he observed the labour has not been explained to her satisfaction. And frankly, I am not that surprised.

He probably didn't mean to gawp, or get some sort of thrill from watching the labour. On the contrary, he really probably was just passing time and it was more interesting (and probably there was a comfortable perch there) than staring at the monitor at the head. And if some people are happy and comfortable with that, it is fine. He probably didn't think that it would be a problem, because he didn't consider it an intrusion (after all he has witnessed many of these before) but it does no harm for medical professionals to be reminded that, they are in fact, privilege to witness these events, and that they should take more care and be more mindful of individual's sensibilities.

thanks for pointing out that he did apologise flisspaps. I overlooked that

Perhaps, as you say the OP's complaints will improve this man's practises and he will be more sensitive to the fact that he does not have a right to observe, but that it is a privilege.

Flisspaps Being still is extremely important when you are putting the epidural in. It doesn't ring true to me that an experienced anethetist would put the needle in without warning the patient it was coming because the natural reaction would be to wince, move, resist. I can't ever imagine an anathetist not warning a patient to keep stlll that they would be about to feel something. I've only had one but I'd also imagine it's not just the anathetist involved with the patient at that time and the nurse/midwife would be talking them through it too.

I am not visualising that part of it.

For goodness sake Mitmoo, just because something hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it can't possibly happen. You seem to have an extremely narrow view of the world beyond your own experiences.

Rita simply applying common sense. Common sense that tells me profession with years of experience doesn't gawp at women's fanjos because they've got nothing better to do.

The same common sense that tells me they're not going to creep up on someone without warning to do a delicate procedure that requires a patient to be absolutely still. Unless I've read that bit wrong, it doesn't make sense.

Kind of agree with some of what mitmoo says. ( I'm that I'm agreeing with her for once tho!!)

And yet you've had several medical professionals tell you that sometimes doctors do observe procedures unnecessarily or to kill time.

Mitmoo Just because you can't ever imagine something, doesn't mean that it's actually beyond the realms of possibility.

when he had sited the epidural he put a sheet completely covering my head, pushed my body into position without warning and stuck a needle in without warning as well. I was feeling hot and sick under the sheet as i had no air and was surprised by the sudden movement and prick so moved.

If a doctor had done that to me, risking me being paralysed that would be my complaint, not that he was looking at my kipper for too long and wasn't needed to be there. That would be serious malpractice surely to risk a patients mobility like that?

What if he'd have hit the spinal column or whatever if he slipped as a result of the OP moving.

If that happened why focus on his need to be there?

"bruffin, not a helpful point, the OP is clearly distressed and went through a lot."

As I pointed out I went through far worse than the op did, encouraging the op to get upset about where someone is standing in the room when she gave birth is not going to help her get over it is it.