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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

...to be cross with this doctor's presence during the birth?

249 replies

chickenchops · 17/09/2011 21:22

Really not sure if i am or not.

I was induced and three hours later given an epidural by the on call anaesthetist. I didn't really like him. He was cross I was skipping the peth injection, got very cross with me when i moved slightly when he stuck me in the back with a needle (without warning), was just overall very abrupt and rude. Oh well i thought... I will never have to see him again.

My labour stalled and I got exhausted. Cue OB coming with ventouse. Just after she arrived, so did the anaesthetist.

He did not speak to me. He did not check any equipment. He did ask midwife if she had to use any boosters. (yes she said. one. although she did not disclose that i was finding the epidural less and less effective and had put me back on gas and air after 2 hours it was sited). the OB got her kit out and got between my legs. Anaesthetist then took position just to her right to watch the birth.

No one explained why he was there. he did not tell me. he made a few inappropriate comments i could have done without and then just well, watched.

Several things went wrong with my birth/aftercare. I ended up writing a letter to the hospital pointing out some aspects of my care that really were wrong and also mentioned that I was quite unhappy that this guy just showed up and hung out between my legs. they were quite surprised I was unhappy about this as "but chicken chops, he's a doctor". I wound up in a meeting with them this week and again expressed how distasteful i found this. they were again gobsmacked and said no one had ever complained before as most women simply don't mind.

really?

I'm not british and grew up in a strict evangelical christian household. I am wondering if i am being precious about my dignity to due how i was raised? Or, would you have found this offensive too?

for the record, the story has changed several times as to why he was there but no one disagrees that while he was there he did nothing.

so... aibu?

OP posts:
RitaMorgan · 18/09/2011 08:30

Why is it unreasonable to assume he just wanted to gawp? Seems the most likely explanation to me.

plantsitter · 18/09/2011 08:32

"He was wrong and we are sorry. We will make sure this won't happen again." would probably do for me in the OP's situation, if they hadn't come up with another reason consistently.

Georgimama · 18/09/2011 08:33

Because frankly hospital staff are so over run with work most of the time that if he had ten minutes to do bugger all I find it more likely that he would have gone to get a cup of tea than stare at the OP's bits.

Maiavan · 18/09/2011 08:34

YANBU even if he was needed, he should have sat at the top end. Doesnt matter if he is a doc and was needed or not. It is a very personal time and does not mean that all norms are just thrown out. The only people who should be down there is a midwife, obe and your birth partner. Everyone else should respect your dignity (you have a right to that even when giving birth!). You dont just become a slab of meat because you are giving birth!

notsofastmrbond · 18/09/2011 08:34

Op, apologies if this isn't the case but did you construe any racist overtones from the comments about Osama bin laden? It's just you said you aren't British and I wondered if you felt he was making a point by mentioning that news story

RitaMorgan · 18/09/2011 08:35

Or Georgimama, he needed to be in the room but rather than staying quiet and out of the way unless needed he was curious enough to have a good old gawp? Otherwise surely the hospital wouldn't have had any problem in explaining his presence.

Mitmoo · 18/09/2011 08:35

Rita that's ridiculous! Do you really think anaesthetics have the time or the inclination to hang gawping around women's fanjo's without a good reason during childbirth.

Seriously?

Maiavan · 18/09/2011 08:36

NO reason whatsoever that an anaesthetist HAS to watch a VD. If he was needed, he should have sat at the top end.

RitaMorgan · 18/09/2011 08:39

Apparently this one did Mitmoo, or they would have given a good reason!

Mitmoo · 18/09/2011 08:39

"He was wrong and we are sorry. We will make sure this won't happen again."

Would probably end up with a law suit.

I would have said something like "I am sorry that you felt he was being intrusive, however, it was important that he was there due to a b c".

She's had several explanations, there comes a point where you just have to draw a line and at the risk of getting flamed, stop wasting the NHs's time, there are patients who require the staffs time and attention

RitaMorgan · 18/09/2011 08:42

Several different explanations though - one truthful one would have been better and wouldn't have wasted everyone's time.

Georgimama · 18/09/2011 08:43

What Mitmoo said. Some people on MN are determined to view male medical staff working in obstetrics as misogynist oppressors/slash happy scalpel wealders determined to medicalise and undermine the sacred female rite of labour.

Perhaps OP as you are a Christian you should simply thank God for the medical knowledge used during that labour to save your life, and if you think the anaethetist acted wrongly, try forgiving him.

RitaMorgan · 18/09/2011 08:46

Better to view them as medical gods who can do no wrong and must not be questioned...

How sad that wanting to be treating with a bit of respect and humanity while giving birth is seen by some as an outrageous expectation.

DaisySteiner · 18/09/2011 08:47

I have absolutely seen anaesthetists watch 'the business end' for no other reason that they were interested.

I find it difficult to imagine a scenario where he needed to watch or indeed be in the room rather than just outside the room. The sad fact is that many (not all) doctors simply do not 'get' that patients have a right to have their dignity respected.

Presumably those on this thread who think it was fine for him to be there would also be happy to have the porter come in for a gawp just in case they needed to be rushed round to theatre. Or the canteen workers so they know when to put the toast in the toaster???

Dignity should be taken very seriously by staff dealing with complaints and I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect a proper explanation and apology if appropriate.

Georgimama · 18/09/2011 08:50

Medical staff learn from clinical experience and observation. Porters don't learn much about their jobs from observing deliveries of babies (although better the porter than no one if it came to it).

Georgimama · 18/09/2011 08:51

And both times I have had a baby the midwife made me the toast.

RitaMorgan · 18/09/2011 08:53

If the anaesthetist wanted to learn through observation, then he should have introduced himself and asked the OP if it was ok for him to observe.

If that was why he was there, then the hospital should have been able to tell the OP that it was important for the doctor to observe a birth to learn something.

littleducks · 18/09/2011 08:53

I cant believe the hard time the OP is getting here.

I did my yr 10 work experience on a gynae ward, I had a great time but looking back on it now I do think that it wasnt handled apropriately. I was introduced by the nurses to drs as a student , who would then take me on rounds and introduce me as a 'student' (nolt explaining I was 14 and hadnt even taken GCSEs) yet. One dr even asked me to put KY Jelly on a speculum so he could do an examination!

Georgimama · 18/09/2011 08:56

We don't know whether that is one of the various explanations the OP has been given. It may well be. I agree in an ideal world he should have done just that if it was the purpose behind his presence. The reason there have been many different reasons for his presence given to the OP is probably because there were several reasons he was there.

Grumpygils · 18/09/2011 08:57

I am coming late, but have read the whole thread. OP YANBU.

The problem here is that the OP did not want extra people down the business end and her consent to being observed in this way was not sought. It is obviously not protocol at her hospital for this to happen (though it seems it is at some), and the hospital cannot explain why he was there. They have not treated her with dignity and respect and that is shit.

I'sd also like to point out that even if it WAS protocol for him to be there, she still has the right to object, request someone else or ask that he leaves. It is one of the fundamental principles of medical care that patients have the right to refuse it even if it is deemed to be not in there best interests to do so. Doctors are not gods, though some seem to think they are.

Georgimama · 18/09/2011 08:58

Thinking a doctor knows his business a little better than I do does not mean that I think he is a God. What a ridiculous suggestion.

Mitmoo · 18/09/2011 09:08

She'd haemorrhaged would she rather the medical profession just left her to it rather that look at her fanjo. I don't think there was anything in the Osama reference, it should be a happy day that he was killed for everyone
.

Nothng more to add to this one, nothing can be achieved but wasting the NHS's time by pursuing this. The OP has had explanations, so whatever other explanation she gets she is not going to be happy with as it will be different to previous ones. If it is the same as previous ones, she wont be happy because she doesn't believe them.

What can possibly be achieved?

chickenchops · 18/09/2011 09:11

Thank you for all your replies.

I find the whole "you have a healthy baby, so shut up" maddening, esp as i never said whether he is or not. But he is and this is AIBU so I guess its par for the course.

Two hours after my epidural was sited it became less and less effective. the midwife used a booster but it did nothing. we asked if i could have the second one but she said there was no point as the first one didn't work. she then gave me gas and air. By the time of delivery the pain was very intense. the ventouse i found excruciating. It was not the time for me to ask if he needed to be there.

When we met with him at the hospital, he told me he had delivered hundreds of baby's. I said i wouldn't have minded quite so much if he had had the decency to say hello or ask me how i was doing. he seemed surprised that he hadn't (he spent a lot of time saying what a great patient friendly guy he was, how he'd never had any complaints etc) but accepted that he hadn't. I said i would have really appreciated him being there had he done anything about the epidural as it wasn't working great. he said he hadn't needed to ask me as "he could just tell by looking at someone" if they were coping well enough. well, ok i can see that a bit i guess. I told him i am a very quiet person though and was doing everything i could not to scream so perhaps actually asking me would have been good. he took this on board. I then said there was no way the pain relief was enough for the extraction. he said that actually, what I was feeling was just the pressure of the baby moving down the birth canal but not pain. a mistake a lot of women make apparently. Angry

when he had sited the epidural he put a sheet completely covering my head, pushed my body into position without warning and stuck a needle in without warning as well. I was feeling hot and sick under the sheet as i had no air and was surprised by the sudden movement and prick so moved. this cued him really giving me a bollocking. when we brought this up in the meeting he was about to pin it on me being high in gas and air and so needing, as they put it, "help into position and firm encouragement to stay still". when we pointed out it did not have gas and air whilst he was doing this, he said "oh. well, you know chicken chops. sometimes we just have to be forceful."

there is still no satisfactory explanation as to his presence other than the OB asked him to be present. Apparently. When i had a debrief earlier to go over what happened, the midwife let it slip that if had been any other OB he probably wouldn't have been present... that these two are mates.

when we met he was quite interested to know when i realised i was haemorrhaging. i told him once the placenta delivered i began to fade in and out and it was then that the OB told me I was having a PPH. he told me how sorry he was that i had haemorrhaged, and as soon as the placenta had delivered he had been told by OB that all was ok and he should go, but really wished he had stuck around to put in more fluid etc and help me. Now i honestly can't remember him leaving... but hubby can. he said the one "non-ass" thing he did was put his hand on his shoulder and tell him how beautiful our baby that he was holding is. the only time my husband held the baby was was when the haemorrhage began as i was too unstable to obviously keep hold of him.

so... i think this guy is used to strutting around our very small maternity unit. His mate was delivering a baby and yes, he decided to pop in and watch. was his manner pervy during the birth? no. I remember him kindly telling me that the worst bit was over. his presence was just unnecessary. he did nothing but watch the delivery without as I've said, to say hello or ask how i was. when i was bleeding out he stood idly by and watch when- by his own admission- he shoudl have been helping to stabilise me. And as for sometimes "needing to be forceful"? i never struggled against him... thus there was no need for him to be forceful. it actually scares me the amount of power these people have.

I think the story has changed several times because he knows he cocked up. he's just not used to being questioned. he also is not used to apologising. he told me how sorry he was that i was upset. i told him i didn't want him to be sorry that i was upset. i wanted him to be sorry the way he treated me was wrong. his reply:
"if, that is in fact how i treated you, then yes i am sorry"

the medical secretary taking notes to "support me" said perhaps because no one had complained previously to the anaesthetist observing their birth they hadn't realised that someone might be uncomfortable with it. yes, yes ,yes he nodded. the promised it would be brought up at their next team meeting.

then he ran from the room like a bat out of hell.

OP posts:
TheRealMBJ · 18/09/2011 09:12

I am a doctor and I have definitely seen members of staff (at times myself) observe procedures for no other reason than to pass the time. This is not necessarily wrong as you may learn something from it BUT, the patient should be asked at every point if they object to someone being present. Particularly if the person is not critical to the completion of the procedure.

Even if the member of staff may be needed at some point, the patient is entitled to request that this person wait outside or at some other place in the room. Or be given a reasonable explanation as to why he/she HAS to be where they where. and I will say this again, 'but he is a doctor!' is NOT good enough.

allhailtheaubergine · 18/09/2011 09:37

at people suggesting that animals give birth in private with dignity. Fine - if you want to go away and give birth alone, under a hedge, do so. You will find that natural, private, dignified survival rate in the wild is rather a lot lower than that of human women giving birth with trained experts to hand in case things go wrong (and in the case of this op things did go wrong and medical intervention was necessary for the health of both her and her baby).

I just do not get how CHOOSING to have medical people present at the birth = loss of dignity.

Giving birth on a trolley in the waiting room to an audience of drunken injuries and broken legs = loss of dignity.

Being wheeled through the corridors naked with your boobs akimbo and your fanny winking at the cafe staff = loss of dignity.

Doing a big poo that is left on your bed and not cleared away before your visitors arrive = loss of dignity.

An anaesthetist observing the birth of a woman he has just anaesthetised for the purposes of her giving birth does not = loss of dignity.

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