to think that the average MNetter has a pretty rosy view about life in the "average" relationship

[livingonthedge]

Have been lurking for a while now and have seen several threads from (usually) women who live with men who shout, swear at them or manipulate them. Replies are invariably "this is abuse so leave him".

I agree that it is abuse but am not sure about the advice or that it is as uncommon as some make out. I think that (sadly) many (usually) men (sometimes women) have real anger management issues or control issues and that the partner gets the brunt of it.

A quick poll of a friends - one with OH who frequently yells verbal abuse; one "has to have sex every day" (or OH "loses it") and one who has no access to money (just housekeeping) and has things like time to bed and to get up dictated by OH. All stay because they look at the alternative and decide to put up with it.

If someone has a career which pays enough to cover the childcare; or if they are so wealthy that they can come out of the relationship with enough to put down a reasonable deposit on a house; or alternatively if they could get social housing then maybe it is a real alternaitve but for a lot of women I do not think that the desicion is that clear cut. Life in a hostel or refuge is not something that they want for their children. In many areas getting social housing with no obvious bruises or proof of abuse isn't that easy.

"supprt from family or frends" assumes that your family agree that the relationship is abusive and that you have friends that can help. My family would not consider it abuse (note that I am not saying that it isn't abuse - I thnk that it is - but my parents would just say that women have put up with worse etc - ie would not help me (my sister was in this position and was not helped). Friends (as above) are in similar relationships and so cannot help (can't see their OHs allowing it :) ).

Am not complaining - just trying to point out what life is really like for many "normal" people. Am not sending this for some "dodgy estate" - my friends and I would be classed as "typically middle class" by most people's definitions. Life is simply not as rosy as all seem to think.

Am I the only one seeing a stealth 'middle class can't win' post here? the OP basically says of course you can leave if you're rich and have a deposit, or poor and can get social housing, but what about us middle classers?

Well bollocks. It is always hard to leave, there are always obstacles, but if you want to overcome them, you will find a way. And no, I don't have some rosy idea of life, in fact I know firsthand how hard life can be. That's why I don't tolerate excuses. (I do understand why it's hard to leave, but I will never accept that means you shouldn't.)

Look, you have made an explicit bargain to stay in an abusive relationship, and presumably keep your kids exposed to an abusive relationship, because the alternative seems worse. It's not, by the way, but okay. So instead of leaving you are trying to normalise your situation, and indulge in some fantasy where abusive men are just confused and need therapy and maybe some better adverts.

People here won't agree with you because they know that bargain is shite.

Harsh, bohemian, but true.

x-post

Those are terrible examples.

If your family won't help you pay for uni, then you work for a few years and save money and pay yourself when you can afford it. Yes it's harder and it sucks that you have to, but you are not 'stuffed', there is a way.

If your friend left a high-earning husband she would presumably get maintenance, if not she would get benefits. Do you think there aren't any single mums with threee kids out there? Yes it is hard but it is not worse than abuse.

I'm sorry to be harsh but I feel like there is so much passivity in your posts. It is possible to get by in life without family and husbands taking care of everything, of course it is hard but it is not impossible and certainly not worth a lifetime of abuse.

So let me get this straight, a woman you know wants to retrain but her husband says no?

And she just puts up with that?

Well, there you go. I mean, really, am I missing something?

And I don't know anyone who hasn't " let" women go to uni or who thinks all women should just get married.

Do you live in 1954?

None of this is normal or healthy, you do need to accept that.

I'm a housewife, several kids, high earning DH. I'd give it all up like a shot if he was a shit. I know that, and here's the science bit, so does he.

And vice versa.

I don't think it's a coincidence that my first abusive marriage co incided with the lowest possible point in my self esteem.

The marriage I have now, whilst far from perfect, is one of mutual respect. DH knows I wouldn't expect any less and that there are boundaries. Likewise I treat him with the same respect and courtesy.

At the point my self esteem grew I shed the toxic marriage and further along the line found DH.

I am at what you say about friends of yours not being allowed to go to university because they're girls. I think it's awful that that kind of thing still happens.

WRT to your friends whose DHs are high earners - if they left, they would get quite a good divorce settlement and their DHs would then be required to pay child maintenance. The women might not be able to afford a great house but they would be away from the abusive situation and would more than likely be able to afford to do something like teacher training. It would be a struggle financially but not impossible.

If you left your DH, living, you would have enough to live on, wouldn't you?

your parents wouldn't help you...This is not normal

my (original) point it that this is the norm for lots of people (cannot begin to give %ages - so not know- so maybe "not uncommon" is more accurate than "normal". There is an assumption that everyone has supportive parents - well many of us do not - and (guessing now) probably the %age of people currently in abusive relationship who have non-supportive parents is vey high. That is probably part of the reason for the abusive relationship.

Have got a 12 year old (+ two others). No member of my family has ever babysat. I have asked but they simply have their own lives - are busy. OHs parents help very occasionally (probably have babysat say 20 times in the last 12 years) but neither set are local to us as we moved for work.

Cailin, I know, I don't mean to be so harsh, this thread is a bit trigger-y.

OP I do feel for you, I just want you to wake up and see that you could have a much better life. The problem is not people on MN being bitches, the problem is your husband, and if he won't gladly change then yes you will be better off without him.

I agree that a lot of parents aren't supportive and that makes life very tough. But you are a parent yourself, and it's time for you to change that situation. You can't change your parents or your PILs, but you can change yourself. You can decide, well yes, I had a shit childhood, my parents are rubbish, but I am my own person now and I can make life better for myself and for my children without their help.

It's horrible to have your eyes opened to the fact that lots and lots of women have lovely husbands/partners who are not abusive fuckholes. Especially when you're living with an abusive man.

Being in an abusive relationship is a lot to do with denial of the reality of your life. So you (generic you) make excuses for the bad behaviour (bad childhood, nasty temper, tired) and you try to find other factors to blame (society, education etc) but the truth is? You're in a dream.

You're waking up OP. And it's horrible and scary. I feel for you.

But women do do it living. They decide that they will not put up with it, they will not teach their children it is normal.

They lose their nice comfy lives and struggle and fight for their own independance. They sometimes have to live in shitty flats and ask for help from the Government and work all the hours god sends, but they can do it, if they want it enough.

Personally I understand staying for the trappings of a comfortable life more than I understand staying out of 'love' for an abusive partner. I don't see how you could love someone who clearly doesn't love you, but I do see how you could use someone like that.

Only you can decide whether the price is too high. But your DH will not change, he has no reason to does he? He treats you like shit and you put up with it, he doesn't care how you feel. He has effectively bought you.

Do you have daughters? You will be OK with them being in a relationship like yours? Because right now they are learning that women are worthless and any relationship is better than none, same goes for any sons you have.

My DS's will grow up knowing that you treat the women in your life with care and respect and you expect the same in return.

*So let me get this straight, a woman you know wants to retrain but her husband says no?

And she just puts up with that*

so what does she do??? She has actually been trying to divorve her OH for nearly 2 years but is really struggling to as he will not agree to come to a financial settlement and has moved all the finances into his name - they had joint accounts but after she started talking about divorce he opened his own and had his salary transferred to that. He comes across as very professional (works for NHS), very pleasant - is not verbally abusive but is very controlling and is very good at being so. She has a very good solicitor but her OH will not pay him and the solicitor is getting fed up waiting so soon she will not have a solicitor. So what does she do? She has thought of just leaving but children are settled at local school and one has ASD so she really does not want to move him.

maintain a lifestyle I'm not talking about what most would call a "lifestyle" - I mentioned a "posh village" and many would call our village "posh" but we are not in the posh bit :) we are in a 3 bed bungalow and have an old car and go camping for holidays etc ie we are not wealthy - nor are most of my friends - if we were then it would be far easier to leave. If you gt no help from parents then any mortgage is a strain and so there is not much left to save and house prices have not moved much recently so it is easy to end up with no savings, not much equity and no pension to speak of.

It really is a case of realising that as a human being you are worth more than this. That's the key to overcoming imo.

Once I'd realised that then any material possessions just didn't matter any more. I was outta there. My self

It really is a case of realising that as a human being you are worth more than this. That's the key to overcoming imo.

Once I'd realised that then any material possessions just didn't matter any more. I was outta there. My SELF was far more valuable than the house, the car etc.

"It's horrible to have your eyes opened to the fact that lots and lots of women have lovely husbands/partners who are not abusive fuckholes. Especially when you're living with an abusive man.

tis true, this is why I dont venture into relatonships. I think I accept ALOT of shit and just think "its normal", I can only start by moderating my behavour

but I think there are limits and ranges

basking round face with iron, beating etc. then I think most people would try and leave

Its the day to week insiduous shit that gets you down time to time but cant necessarily be called abuse
alot of people do put up with it

Ah Porca. I'm sorry to hear that. Truly.

In my case though Porca there was a limit. If you've not reached that yet I really do believe that one day you will.

In your friend's case I would look at opening my own account and getting a job.

Women leave abusive but financially comfortable lives everyday. It is possible, but it is hard and unpleasant.

If you make the deal, don't try to pretend that it isn't a deal and that really he is a good man who has just lost his way and needs some help.

That is bullshit. Make the deal by all means, but don't be surprised if it ends up costing a lot more than you think.

Like JillySnooper's DH, my husband knows that while I enjoy the comforts that our joint lives bring us, I hold myself and my kids in too much regard to put up with any crap from a man. You know why? Because my Mum and my Dad showed me how a couple interact.

Pore ol porca. No wonder you still haven't changed your name.

It's horrible to have your eyes opened to the fact that lots and lots of women have lovely husbands

I wish we could move away from the idea that I am trying to say that no woman has a lovely partner or that abuse is "usual". I am sorry that I used the word "average" in my original post - was probably misjudged.

All I am trying to say is that I do not think that verbal abuse/controlling behaviour is as rare as some make out and I think that many, many people are puttign up with it because the alternatives are equally unpleasant when you have no support from family/friends and that having no support from family/friends is probably quite common for individuals in verbally abusive/controling relationships.

I am also saying that I believe that if we got the "verbal abuse/controlling behaviour happens quite a lot and needs to be dealt with as seriously as teenage abuse/other abuse" message out there more openly then things woul dbe better.

Finally I do not think that saying "no one woudl put up with this, you must leave" is that helpful. Saying "verbal abuse and controlling behaviour are really bad let's have a MN campaign to stop it" maybe but not that likely I guess

I try to stay away from the relationships board, because I just want to reach through the fucking screen and shake people and sometimes I can't keep that out of my posts.

This stuff just makes me so very very angry and I don't really understand the lack of rage so many women exhibit.

Oh YES Mortloth - that's such an important point about your parents.

My Dad would never in a MILLION years have treated my mum and I the way that my ex has treated me and our children...

So I wonder why I put up with it, and then I wonder why I even went back for some more of the same, and then I think...

I did that but I would NEVER let anyone treat me like shit ever ever again, and a lot of that is down to the stuff I've learned on MN. Honestly.

Morloth - youhave to value yourself to feel rage. An awful lot of women have had all that crushed out of them from childhood onwards.