to think that the average MNetter has a pretty rosy view about life in the "average" relationship

[livingonthedge]

Have been lurking for a while now and have seen several threads from (usually) women who live with men who shout, swear at them or manipulate them. Replies are invariably "this is abuse so leave him".

I agree that it is abuse but am not sure about the advice or that it is as uncommon as some make out. I think that (sadly) many (usually) men (sometimes women) have real anger management issues or control issues and that the partner gets the brunt of it.

A quick poll of a friends - one with OH who frequently yells verbal abuse; one "has to have sex every day" (or OH "loses it") and one who has no access to money (just housekeeping) and has things like time to bed and to get up dictated by OH. All stay because they look at the alternative and decide to put up with it.

If someone has a career which pays enough to cover the childcare; or if they are so wealthy that they can come out of the relationship with enough to put down a reasonable deposit on a house; or alternatively if they could get social housing then maybe it is a real alternaitve but for a lot of women I do not think that the desicion is that clear cut. Life in a hostel or refuge is not something that they want for their children. In many areas getting social housing with no obvious bruises or proof of abuse isn't that easy.

"supprt from family or frends" assumes that your family agree that the relationship is abusive and that you have friends that can help. My family would not consider it abuse (note that I am not saying that it isn't abuse - I thnk that it is - but my parents would just say that women have put up with worse etc - ie would not help me (my sister was in this position and was not helped). Friends (as above) are in similar relationships and so cannot help (can't see their OHs allowing it :) ).

Am not complaining - just trying to point out what life is really like for many "normal" people. Am not sending this for some "dodgy estate" - my friends and I would be classed as "typically middle class" by most people's definitions. Life is simply not as rosy as all seem to think.

OP - I think your views are coloured by the experiences of your own friends and acquaintances who are never going to be representative of the population as a whole. We all make friends with like-minded people. Your friends are no more "normal" than are mine.

But I don't think abusive relationships are the norm, no.

Nooby - I got it from Aliens. Ripley says it to the Alien Mother who is about to attack Newt. Kick-ass moment

I don't have a rosy view of relationships. If someone comes on here and describes behaviour exhibited by their OH I would not put up with, I'd tell them not to put up with it - its as simple as that really.

Nooby I agree a once-off incident is absolutely no reason to leave someone. However, the OP has described abusive situations and has said her husband is abusive which is a totally different situation.

You base your view on "normal" on what you see around you.

I'm not in an abusive relationship
My parents and PIL aren't in abusive relationships
My siblings aren't in abusive relationships
My friend's relationships range from blissful to troubled but as far as I know, no one is verbally or physically abused, denied access to money, or coerced into sex.

i agree OP

Its so easy to say "this is abuse, leave him"

but people do have to live with men with anger issues, depression issues, drink issues etc. maybe they are only shitty 10% of the time

I would never dare post on here as would get the same pat answer

relationships are hard work, and people are not perfect

I will sometimes lose m,y temper ands throw things, hit walls. thats me, not nice but I am HUMAN

Living I am disturbed by your posts on numerous levels, many of which have been eloquently addressed by others.

But I would add what disturbs me most is your repeated reference to what is a 'posh', affluent, middle-class lifestyle and the statement that abusive behaviour is simply the 'price' you and your abused friends (for that is what they are) have 'chosen to pay.'

It reads as if you (plural) are accepting these behaviours not out of a love for your partners despite their faults, not a terror of the consequences of leaving, or a desire to keep the family together, but because, through your husbands, you have financial security and all that comes with it -the chi-chi village, the Ocado deliveries, the good schools, whatever.

That a woman can stay with and justify an abusive partner out of (misplaced) love, or fear, I can understand.

That she will stay with him to maintain a lifestyle I find genuinely chilling.

Apologies if I have misread.

(Incidentally I whole-heartedly agree that some irritable weary bloke blowing his top every now and then is proof of being human, not an abusive wanker who should be served with divorced papers the next morning. None of us are perfect).

Actually, no - nobody has to live with men with anger issues.

I went to relate around anger issues, turned out we BOTH have anger management issues! fun fun fun

"Anger issues" that are presumably only inflicted on their family

Throwing things and hitting walls really isn't normal as a regular occurence either.

I base my 'rosy' view on those around me. I am not in an abusive relationship, neither are my extended family and I can't think of any friends either.
You choose to live with the man-women can live alone-they can leave. They let the man be abusive. One would only have to be verbally abusive once and they would be 'on their bike'.No one has ever hit me in my entire life-the shock would be great-they wouldn't get the opportunity again.

I think, op, that because of sites like MN loads of people ARE talking about it, and there is a greater awareness of and less tolerance of it. It makes it uncomfortable for women that live like that, and know others that do, because they can no longer think that it is the norm. Rather than face the fact that they live with an arse, and all that that entails, they first start to think the man would change if only it was explained nicely.

rita I am not proud of it! and I am not proud of our blazing rows

but I dont want us to split, as the good is much higher % than the bad

thats the most honest answer I can give

fuck its hard tho

MN has opened my eyes to the lives and relationships that some women have. Like others my "normal" is that which surrounds me: parents, family and friends all in mutually respectful happy relationships.

I just don't recognise these abusive men which are everywhere. I am not for one minute suggesting they do not exist, rather you are doing yourself a huge diservice by believing that all men are like this and (leaving aside being single) those that aren't you could not get

So many of your issues have been addressed but two struck me:

One, that your parents wouldn't help you unless they knew there was abuse. This is not normal. If I told my parents that I wanted to leave DH, for whatever reason they would support taht choice. that is normal.

Two, that your friends wouldn't help, because their OH's wouldn't allow it. OP I feel you have such a warped view of the way men are that is hampering your ability to see th horror of your own relationship. If one of my girlfriends was in abusive relationship my DH would do everything he could to help her, as would I.

I think that if a couple live on their own together with no children or other family around, and they throw things and swear at each other and they're each happy to accept that as part of their relationship, that's fine, that's their choice and they're choosing that for themselves and no one else.

But it is absolutely not ok to bring children into a tense angry environment where people are treated with disrespect and anger is dealt with by throwing things and cursing. Parents have a responsibility to their children to give them the best life they possibly can. They might not have money or a great house but they can and should give them the most peaceful, safe, comfortable environment that they can manage. Throwing your hands up and saying "that's just the way we are" isn't good enough IMO.

I agree with exoticfruits on this entirely.

We've been married for twenty years. Not once have we abused one another verbally let alone physically. It was an agreement we had. Not perfect, flawed like everyone else but there is a line that we drew which neither would cross.

I also agree with whoever said if more women refused to put up with shitty men, those men would have to change. unfortunately, while so many women do, they have no reason to change.

If my DH was abusing me my mother would be around and wiping the floor with him!! She would have me out of there.
I know that there are abusive people around (of both sexes) but I don't see it as normal and I don't see it as something that you put up with.

I agree with you Jilly about there being a line. Everyone gets angry but there should be a point where, as a mature adult, you say "I will not engage in that sort of behaviour." IMO if you have a relationship where screaming and throwing things is the norm then you should take a step back and say, this isn't healthy and try to find some way of changing that situation. Usually that sort of behaviour comes from a bad pattern of communication where both people don't feel listened to and frustration builds up to boiling point. I've been with my DH ten years and he has made me very angry on a number of occasions. I did throw a plate once in extreme anger but he didn't retaliate, he just stepped away and said "You need to calm down, I'll talk to you when you're calm." He did absolutely the right thing and I'm ashamed of how I behaved. I hope I'll never do it again. He has never ever raised his voice to me once, has never called me a name, has never cursed at me and I don't think he ever will.

These men home in on women who are going to put up with it.
I have never met one-probably they recognise that I would look at them oddly, suggest they got help for anger management and said goodbye.
There is no excuse-they wouldn't get a second chance.
I certainly wouldn't live with a man before knowing him for a longish time, in stressful situations, when he had had a drink and I would want to have met his parents, siblings, friends etc.
I accept that once you have got involved, have mixed finances and DCs it isn't easy to get out without backup. However there must have been a first time that he called her a bitch or worse and she let him do it. No one has ever called me that-and one thing is for sure they are never ever going to!

picture of a glass of red wine smashing into a nice, neat, wallpapered wall
this woman married to a French man who controls what she eats and wears

but these 2 examples are sort of my point - ie they are more extreme - so my OH who shouts abuse, or my friends who demands sex, would say that they don't throw and don't control what we eat and so any suggestion on our part is over reaction by neurotic women. (Am using neurotic delibarately as we have both been assuced of being "slightly mad" by our partners.

aren't you really just making this someone else's fault instead of your DH's
I don't think so. Like it or not in the past (and not so distant) it was accepted that some partner's hit their OHs (was even legal). Rape within marriage has only recently become a crime. Some people still live in the past. They have not got used to the idea that things have changed and I think that we need more publicity about the issues to get across the message that verbal abuse and controlling behaviour are just as bad as physical abuse.

Exoticfruits, I am nodding along to your posts.

The argument put forth on the feminist board on this issue is always that men gradually change but that is not always the case. Some men are bastards from the off and some women think they can change them or just put up with them anyway as they " love 'im".
Some men do gradually increase their shittiness but that means that you put your foot down the very first time it happens.

You really, REALLY do get what you settle for.

Living, does your DH shout abuse at his parents, or his work colleagues?

If my DH shouted abuse at me I would leave.

The key here is that he has always known I would leave so has never , EVER taken that risk.

Why on earth do you allow him to speak to you like that?

could I also point out that if the women who are choosing to put up with these situations for economic reasons had invested in themselves as much as their families they might have more options

but this is not so easy - I have friends who were not allowed to go to university (ie parents would not fund it) because they were women (ie their brothers did go - they were told that there is no point i neducating women as they just get married). Maybe today it is easier but I doubt it as I think that the loans etc just cover fees adn not living expenses so if your family can afford it but choose not to then you are stuffed. Have another friend who'se OH has left everything to the son (it is all in his name) as the daughter "will not need it".

I am very well quilified but not in an area which is particularly well paid - how do you suggest that I invest in myself? Where do I get the money from - harder nowadays as it costs so much to study. And who would look after my children if I did? I have another friend who really wants to train as a teacher but her OH has said "no" - he wants her at home - so she is stuffed. How can she do it? She is married to a high earner so will not qualify for any grants etc. Yes she could leave him but then she'd have 3 kids to look after and no childcare.