to think that the average MNetter has a pretty rosy view about life in the "average" relationship

[livingonthedge]

Have been lurking for a while now and have seen several threads from (usually) women who live with men who shout, swear at them or manipulate them. Replies are invariably "this is abuse so leave him".

I agree that it is abuse but am not sure about the advice or that it is as uncommon as some make out. I think that (sadly) many (usually) men (sometimes women) have real anger management issues or control issues and that the partner gets the brunt of it.

A quick poll of a friends - one with OH who frequently yells verbal abuse; one "has to have sex every day" (or OH "loses it") and one who has no access to money (just housekeeping) and has things like time to bed and to get up dictated by OH. All stay because they look at the alternative and decide to put up with it.

If someone has a career which pays enough to cover the childcare; or if they are so wealthy that they can come out of the relationship with enough to put down a reasonable deposit on a house; or alternatively if they could get social housing then maybe it is a real alternaitve but for a lot of women I do not think that the desicion is that clear cut. Life in a hostel or refuge is not something that they want for their children. In many areas getting social housing with no obvious bruises or proof of abuse isn't that easy.

"supprt from family or frends" assumes that your family agree that the relationship is abusive and that you have friends that can help. My family would not consider it abuse (note that I am not saying that it isn't abuse - I thnk that it is - but my parents would just say that women have put up with worse etc - ie would not help me (my sister was in this position and was not helped). Friends (as above) are in similar relationships and so cannot help (can't see their OHs allowing it :) ).

Am not complaining - just trying to point out what life is really like for many "normal" people. Am not sending this for some "dodgy estate" - my friends and I would be classed as "typically middle class" by most people's definitions. Life is simply not as rosy as all seem to think.

I really don't understand where the op is coming from. It reads like 'any man is better than no man'. This is really, really sad.

I want so much more for my daughter. If she ever came to me and told me her partner was raping her but sheput up with it because it was too difficult to leave, I would know that i had utterly failed as a parent to teach her to value and respect herself.

I don't think it's a rosy view, it's a view of what constitutes a good relationship. Having been a child growing up watching my mother in an abusive but financially comfortable relationship, I wouldn't ever put my child through that, however straitened the circumstances. Some things are worth a lot more than money.

I think many people have got their values screwed somewhere along the line.

No, okay, choices may be limited. But generally, the people saying they would not live like that would recognise this kind of relationship early on and get out before they ended up married to someone like this.

I totally understand what you are trying to say - that some people don't have this prior knowledge, some people aren't lucky enough to have a good, strong relationship template to go by, and it feels insulting, especially if you are someone who was or is in a relationship that others say they wouldn't live like or wouldn't put up with or wouldn't let their partner treat them like or whatever, especially when they display confusion and disbelief like this is the most ridiculous thing or most obvious decision ever, yes I understand that that can seem awfully naive when you have firsthand experience of being in a relationship like this, when you know you didn't see a man who was abusive and frightening and cruel and say "I'll have a bit of that!" but you see the other sides of that man, the one which can be funny, or romantic, or generous, and maybe damaged, or imperfect or just in need of some love. And I know what it feels to love someone like that, knowing others wouldn't put up with some of his faults, but feeling it's worth it, feeling like others are insensitive, and I know what it feels when you are in that period where you know it's not right but you are settling, and knowing that others (even on an internet forum) are possibly judging you, or think you are stupid. And then when you do get out and see others in that situation feeling judged just like you were, and you know that she isn't stupid, just like you weren't. You know that it's not about that. And it's not as simple as "Well I wouldn't let a man treat me like that!" because nobody walks into a relationship willingly where they know they are going to be abused, and there are no neon signs handily on abusers' foreheads to let you know what kind of a person they are.

However, I think it's massively important to challenge views that "Sometimes the choice to stay with an abuser is the best choice". Sorry but no, it's not. Ever. Especially when there are children involved who are picking up relationship templates for the future.

cailin - yes I'd say that my OH is often verbally abusive. My point is that I think that this kind of verbal abuse/control is shoved under that carpet by makin git out as something more terrible than it is so no one can talk about it and men do get away with it because every time it is mentioned the response is "how terrible, leave him" (and so women do not mention it). This makes it unacceptable for men to admit that they have an issue and harder to get them to seek help.

I think that if it were talked about more then it would be more acceptable for a man to go to anger management sessions or anti-controlling-bully classes or what ever.

I know (from private conversation with them) that several women in my (rather posh) village are puttign up with this but we cannot talk about it openly because there is this taboo about it precisely because all abuse is lumped together as "too terrible, don't put up with it, leave him".

If I wanted councelling for being depressed/nurotic whatever then their are lots of services available but none locally and hardly any nationally offering anger management etc to men.

Wow great post Bertie.

I agree that unpleasantness is probably far more prevalent in relationships than I like to think. I can think of three relationships (without even trying) that I know where the husbands are definitely emotionally abusive and the wives suspect but are too scared to admit it. It would take a lot for them to leave, and if they did, many, many people would question their judgement. The men don't shout or hit, they don't have to

Having said that, if they posted on a site like this, I prefer to think they'd be told that leaving is a reasonable option, and would get some help teasing out what their financial/practical situation could be like.

I guess that I am sort of saying that there are not enough gentlemen (in the original sense of the word) to go around

I'd hazard a guess that men have always been much the same, simple things that they are - and 3 other things have changed:

• women overall have more control of their bodies and money (overall) so are less likely to stay in crap relationships
• (some) women have very unrealistic views on what it means to share one's life with another person and struggle with that - and today they can leave easily
• (some) women will always be doormats no matter how many rights women have won for themseles, and I reckon % doormats is about teh same generation on generation - but hopefully 100 years of feminist rights may have mitigated that

In other words, I would think that overall that less, not more, women are staying in bad relationships, and for less time.

some 'men' use these class' to then continue the abuse.

i have done the class's so it must be you who is the problem, you'll never find someone who puts up with you like i do

I'm sorry to hear that living. I think what you're saying (sorry if I'm misunderstanding) is that you believe an abuser can change and that if it was easier to seek help for an abuser, if you could talk to someone and get him or her counselling, then things would get better for the couple and it wouldn't be necessary for them to split up. Am I right?

I think you are being very unfair to most people who post about this stuff.

What I generally read is advice along the lines of - this is unacceptable, it must change, try counselling but if he can't or won't change you seriously have tonthink about your options.

What is is wrong with that?

You cant seriously be critical of posters who don't simply reply by validating your choice if they think that you are wrong.

Not enough gentlemen to go around? Then let's shout about the benefits of being single! Maybe we should stick together as women a bit more, single parent house shares etc. If women stopped having relationships with men who treated them like shit, maybe men would realise they had to treat women a bit better to have a relationship with them in the first place.

I admit this is a bit flippant because I do happen to be in a very happy relationship now, but I really was happy being single before I met DP, and if we did split up (which I hope we don't) I would probably be single for a very long time. Relationship problems are shit. How many tears have I wasted over men? And why? Because I thought it was better to be with someone than with no-one. You'd ditch a friend who made you cry, I decided I don't want anyone in my life who makes me unhappy, as far as I can control that. And a romantic relationship is something you have control over.

Thanks Cailin

BertieBotts - two brilliant posts. Exactly what I want to teach my daughter.

you believe an abuser can change and that if it was easier to seek help for an abuser, if you could talk to someone and get him or her counselling yes - with some kinds of abuse - ie I think that there are degres of abuser and that if we admitted that there are degrees and talked about it then maybe some could change. OH is very verbally abusive but has never hit me so must be in some kind of control of himself and so I suspect could change with help. Same for all the other abusers who do not leave brusies.

Agree totally again Bertie, exactly what I wanted to say but put much better by you.

Does your DH want to change living? Has he said that he realises he's abusive and needs to do something about it?

Yes, great post Bertie.

living - do you think your husband would go to counselling? What if he didn't change?

I am not clear if you are saying 'well this is just the price you pay' (presumably to live in a posh village, with your children in nice schools, not wanting financially)

I don't think the alternative is worse. I grew up in that environment and it's taken me a long time to find any happiness. I wouldn't ever raise my children with less than mutual respect as the norm because in my mind it's far more damaging to see it and learn it, than it is to have less/change schools/move home and I think we are far more capable that it seems given credit for in coping on our own.

OK, OP, your latest post makes more sense.

I would agree that it needs to be more acceptable to talk about anger management issues and it needs to be seen as more of a 'masculine' thing to get therapy (because aren't some men so afraid to be seen as less than masculine?)

But surely, any man who truly loved his wife and children, but saw himself repeatedly yelling at them, saw them cowering in fear from him, would be shocked by his own behaviour and seek help, even if it bruised his ego? If a man is too proud to seek help and keeps on abusing his family for the sake of his own public image, he is a bastard who only really cares about himself.

Some men are just shits.

When the cries of 'leave him' start on MN, it is usually after suggestions of relationship/anger management therapy or going to to Relate etc have been made, but the OP reveals that her partner is unwilling to get help to stop being an abuser.

I agree that there are a lot of overreactions e.g. after one shouty argument there can be a 'leave him! Men like him just get worse!' consensus, so I do see what you're getting at, OP.

However, I would not blame posters, and I'm not sure it is about having a rosy view. I think it is very easy to judge someone's situaton based on a short, simplified paragraph. It is human nature to look for patterns in things, rather than perhaps consider each situation and relationship as unique. I personally think without a long, detailed and concise discussion of the situation, it is not wise to make judgments - but that is not the nature of a forum.

"If women stopped having relationships with men who treated them like shit, maybe men would realise they had to treat women a bit better to have a relationship with them in the first place."

Amen, amen, amen.

Great posts BB.

Viz anger management, I think it's worth bearing in mind that lots of abusers don't need anger management lessons - they're brilliantly good at controlling their anger. They only ever take it out on the women and children they live with, they are absolute experts at controlling it with everyone else.

I'm not sure Mumsnet en masse does have a rosy view of relationships - people are very well aware that lots of relationships are really, really shit and that it's "normal" to be in borderline abusive situations, but that that is tolerated and encouraged by society and the people who say that borderline abusiveness is unacceptable and being single is preferable, are generally considered dangerous extremists.

There are lots of avenues for courses, counselling etc. relate are pretty good. Or refer yourselves to someone local - go to the British Society of Psychotherapists or whatever it's called, just five mins on google will give you a pretty good idea.

I don't agree with your suggestion that there are not well recognised options for abusive men. But your husband probably won't accept he is abusive because he doesn't hit you.

What have you said to him about his behaviour?

I also agree with annie, that the cries of "leave him", generally only start after the OP has described a consistent pattern of abusive behaviours, not just a one off unfortunate incident.

Well said, Bertie. I am baffled by how afraid some women are to be single. While huge leaps have been made by feminism, sadly the social stigma is still with us that a women must have man to validate her as a grownup human. Much the same way that women only get the adult salutation of Mrs when they're married - until a man stamps you as his, you're not a 'proper' woman.

It's an tragedy. As you say, if more women were perfectly happy to be single, and if society (yes, DM, I'm looking at you) supported instead of vilifying single mothers, there would be a lot less reason for women to stay with abusive shits.

i feel i must add so are some women (abusive and controlling)