to think that the average MNetter has a pretty rosy view about life in the "average" relationship

[livingonthedge]

Have been lurking for a while now and have seen several threads from (usually) women who live with men who shout, swear at them or manipulate them. Replies are invariably "this is abuse so leave him".

I agree that it is abuse but am not sure about the advice or that it is as uncommon as some make out. I think that (sadly) many (usually) men (sometimes women) have real anger management issues or control issues and that the partner gets the brunt of it.

A quick poll of a friends - one with OH who frequently yells verbal abuse; one "has to have sex every day" (or OH "loses it") and one who has no access to money (just housekeeping) and has things like time to bed and to get up dictated by OH. All stay because they look at the alternative and decide to put up with it.

If someone has a career which pays enough to cover the childcare; or if they are so wealthy that they can come out of the relationship with enough to put down a reasonable deposit on a house; or alternatively if they could get social housing then maybe it is a real alternaitve but for a lot of women I do not think that the desicion is that clear cut. Life in a hostel or refuge is not something that they want for their children. In many areas getting social housing with no obvious bruises or proof of abuse isn't that easy.

"supprt from family or frends" assumes that your family agree that the relationship is abusive and that you have friends that can help. My family would not consider it abuse (note that I am not saying that it isn't abuse - I thnk that it is - but my parents would just say that women have put up with worse etc - ie would not help me (my sister was in this position and was not helped). Friends (as above) are in similar relationships and so cannot help (can't see their OHs allowing it :) ).

Am not complaining - just trying to point out what life is really like for many "normal" people. Am not sending this for some "dodgy estate" - my friends and I would be classed as "typically middle class" by most people's definitions. Life is simply not as rosy as all seem to think.

your husband probably won't accept he is abusive because he doesn't hit you I guess that this is what I mean in that if it were openly discussed - without all the "leave him" cries - just say on telly or on the news - so that OH could see that someone was saying "if yu behave like this then it is wrong so get help" the nmaybe he would. But as it is no one will talk about it as a problem that a couple could maybe work out - it is lumped in as "abuse" and the person being abused is told to leave.

*the cries of "leave him", generally only start after the OP has described a consistent pattern of abusive behaviours" but that is what I'm talking about. I am saying that maybe some men who consistantly abuse could be helped or would stop if this kind of consistant abuse was talked about more openly without the hysteria.

What man will seek help if in doing so he is afraid that he will be labeled as an abuser adn may lose his kids or his job?

I can see there is a real problem for women who have more than one child and who gave up work to look after them. The middle class mothers on my street would face some pretty horrible choices if they chose to leave their husbands.

But the alternative to leaving isn't just suffering in silence and teaching your children sad lessons about relationships.

If there was something about this man initially that was good and true, you felt loved by him, why can't you both try to talk about the problem and fix it? If it's fixable.

I don't think sticking your head in the sand is ever a good choice.

That is a general 'you' not a particular 'you'.

Sorry, but I don't understand what kind of 'decent' human being needs an outside party or an advertising campaign to tell them that yelling and screaming at (and indeed hitting) their loved ones is wrong.

As another poster said, these men manage to control their behaviour in all other situations. They don't abuse their friends or employees because they understand that's not acceptable. You'll never convince me they don't realise this extends to family too.

How is going to relate equated with labelling a man an abuser and him losing job and children?

I think you are trying to rationalise your decision not to confront him. If he doesn't understand that his behaviour is abusive, he needs to learn. That doesn't mean he is a monster, maybe he just needs help, maybe there are things about your relationship dynamic that you could also get help for.

But I just don't get this suffering in silence bit. I thought there was generally much more openness about people getting help and counselling.

I do know at least two women amongst my friends who are currently in unhappy reationships because it's easier than the alternative.

One would cheerfully tell you that she & her h don't get on, but hey ho, they have dc & a nice life together, & neither of them is interested in anyone else - should that ever change, they'd look at separating once the dc are grown up.

The other is currently estranged from a h who assaulted her, but is now making remorseful noises, & is minded to give him one more chance - not because she misses the man, but because she is tired - of their dc missing their dad, of other family members sticking their two penn'orth in, of running herself ragged as a single parent - when she could Make It Stop just by texting him & saying OK, come home.

& I agree absolutely that alone is better than a crap relationship, but I have young dc & a dh who works away a lot. It's bloody hard.

Looking at it quite dispassionately, I can see why both my friends are prepared to...tolerate/entertain/try to make work...relative levels of marital unhappiness as part of the family picture.

Abuse isn't really spoken about at all in the media IME, other than straight out hitting which is just the most obvious tip of the iceberg.

There are some very good ads on at the moment which show a teenage couple arguing about whether or not the girl should be seeing one of her friends. He tries to look at her phone and she protests, so he throws the phone across the floor. The camera then zooms out to reveal the same girl bashing on a clear screen, and the tagline "If you could see yourself... would you see abuse?"

I find it hard to watch. But I think it's a great campaign, aimed at exactly the right age group. An adult man (or woman) who has been behaving in this way most of their life and found that it works for his or her purposes is not going to change out of concern for their spouse, mainly because if they had that concern, they wouldn't be behaving like that in the first place. I know that sounds awful and like it's writing people off, and perhaps if someone has deep seated childhood issues they might gain from therapy or counselling etc but in any case, someone has to WANT to change to actually put the work in. It has to come from them, not from anybody else. They have to want to change for themselves, not to make their relationship work. And someone who is happy with who they are generally doesn't want to change.

(Sorry might be xposted as DS fell out of bed)

There are some very good ads ...teenage couple arguing ...If you could see yourself... would you see abuse I guess that I'd like to see similar but with professional people shouting at their OHs and with a helpline which could refer them to someone who could try to help.

I agree the format could be rolled out. There is a poster which I have seen all around locally advertising the local DV helpline which is just a picture of a glass of red wine smashing into a nice, neat, wallpapered wall. No class assumptions there, no assumption of violence (though good symbolism) and at the bottom a short line saying "If you or someone you know is affected by verbal, physical, emotional, financial or sexual abuse call 999999999"

bertiebotts I don't agree that it isn't spoken about in the media. Even the Daily Mail ! Seems quite in tune - they have been running a series of articles about this woman married to a French man who controls whatbshe eats and wears and I was quite impressed that the tone of the articles definitely conveys worry and disapproval about how this man acts.

Anyway I am off to bed. I am sorry if I sounded hardband unsympathetic op. I left an abusive relationship because financially I could - I can afford my own home and a live in au pair. plus I have only one child.

There are a lot of sahm on my street with at least 3 children. I understand it would be very hard to contemplate leaving.

But you have only one life and your children only one childhood. I really don't think anyone should have to 'put up with ' being treated like shit. Ifyou don't feel loved and cherished at least 80% of the time in your relationship, something is wrong and needs addressing.

That's good Spero :) I should probably not make assumptions about the media in general since most of my consumption is and has been online for the past 3-4 years.

Op I really feel for you :(

I don't think that emotional abuse is part of the average relationship and women shouldn't just accept a shitty relationship. It is better to be single and poor than live with someone who can't honestly love you if he is horrible to you. Unless he has a personality disorder and is rude and vile to everyone then he is choosing to be rude and vile to you.

Also you (general you) are putting yourself before your children and teaching them it is ok to be in a crap relationship with verbal abuse. I know it is very, v hard to leave and abusive man but it does damage children. Your teaching your son how to speak to his future wife and your daughter to accept shit treatment. Do you really want your kids to have the same relationship as you?

My mum was in an abusive marriage and I can see the relationship scares it's given me. I/we were all far happier with less and my mum single than the horrible atmosphere at home when my parents were together.

I think YABU.

I can kind of get my head around what you are saying, but aren't you really just making this someone else's fault instead of your DH's?

He behaves the way he does because he wants to.

I like that MN has a low bullshit tolerance level when it comes to men being abusive. I think most of the world likes to pretend that that is how men are and women should just put up with it.

You don't have to put up with it, you have decided that it is better than the other options, but would your kids make the same choice? What possible incentive does your DH have to change?

And, could I also point out that if the women who are choosing to put up with these situations for economic reasons had invested in themselves as much as their families they might have more options? The whole premise of this question makes it sound as if these women have no option but to tolerate unhappy relationships but that's not true at all. They just don't like the idea of the alternatives. Yes, being a single parent and working is hard but I'd rather have that than to tolerate some stupid man who believes that he has the right to belittle me (or a lot worse).

I grew up watching my mother beaten and abused. There is no way that's happening to me and my DD's not witnessing it either.

Men don't abuse because no-one tells them it's wrong or because society doesn't support them to stop. They do it because they want to; and because doing it gets them a result they want be it sex every day or simply the whole family pandering to his needs. Fuck that, frankly.

MN has opened my eyes. I now recognise abuse (including EA) for what it is. And unfortunately I see signs of it in couple I know - so from one point of view, I agree with you OP - it is more common than many of us realise.

And I agree that the campaign for teens is excellent and could be very educational for adults.

But as it is no one will talk about it as a problem that a couple could maybe work out - it is lumped in as "abuse" and the person being abused is told to leave

I also want to comment on what you said about there not being enough gentlemen to go round..

As the mum of boys, I'm aware that the responsibility rests with me and my DH to set a standard of behaviour, and an example to my DSs of what I will accept, so that in future there are more "gentleman".

OH is very verbally abusive but has never hit me so must be in some kind of control of himself and so I suspect could change with help. Same for all the other abusers who do not leave brusies

Randon tangent sort of post !

There is a very old saying, one of my mothers mantras - "When choosing a husband, look how he treats his mother, because that is the way he will treat you"

There's a lot of milage in that. Behaviour is more often than not, learned and it's difficult to un-learn it.

And for the gents who might be reading! "when choosing a wife, look at the mother-in-law - because that's what your wife will be like in 30 years"!!!

I only know the odd couple in rl lke this and I think they are highly dysfunctional. In my job when i started meeting couples like this I was shocked as didnt really know it happened much.

I suppose it relates to your experiences i have never, ever heard my mum and dad swear except for saying bloody on the very odd occasion. My parents think the f word is disgraceful and a decline in moral standards and I would never hear them say it to each other in anger.

I dont think its normal to have any of the issues stated but i grew up with my parents and then completly replicared their relationship and the ones I see around me which are all long standing. I think it is very worry that you think most men are like that when I wold say it was a small majority, but again relates to your upbringing, experiences and expectations.

I understand what you're saying living, but I don't agree with you. What you're saying is that if society gave abusive men a gentle wake up call (ie one that doesn't label them as abusers, but perhaps just tells them what they're doing is wrong) then some of them might change. I can see why think that - you clearly love your husband and believe him to be a good man, and you believe that one day he will open his eyes to what he is doing. Perhaps he will, that would be a great thing.

However, I find it very hard to believe that a fully functioning person can honestly get to adulthood without realising that shouting at/belittling/swearing at their partner and children is wrong. As others have said, unless that person also shouts and swears at their boss and their parents then they clearly know that behaviour is wrong but they don't have enough respect for their family not to use that behaviour on them.

I also don't agree that an abuser should be protected from the truth. An abuser should be told exactly what they are and if that doesn't give them a wake up call then nothing will. I just don't agree that we should spare the feelings and future of abusers. If you go to your partner, tell them how you feel, that what they're doing upsets you and is wrong, and they respond either by ignoring you or getting angry with you then you have your answer right there - they don't care what you think. They shouldn't need the media to tell them how to behave, all they should need is a request from their partner, whom they should love and respect enough to listen to.

The vast majority of anti-DV campaigns are directed at the victim because the fact of the matter is that in the vast majority of cases the only way to change things is for the victim to get out of the relationship.

Agree with cailindana. also if it was me I would leave him as I dont think people change and dont think a man that did this ever could tbh. i dont think there is any other option personally, but thats from the kind of men that do this and me looking in from the outside and growing up in my family

The problem is that abuse perpetuates itself. How do men (and women) learn to behave in the way that they do - by observing their parents interactions. If those interactions are abusive, then that is set as the norm. Depending on the personality of the child, they could go on to be either the abuser or the abused in subsequent relationships. Frequently though with women and girls, the women is the abused, and the girl sees that having a partner is valued more by her mother than her own self respect, and she therefore puts the same value to being in a relationship, often regardless of how she is treated.

I wrote once about my DH shouting at me and calling me a fucking twat, I was so upset as this was totally outside his normal, rational behaviour - and some of the responses I got were comical.

Along the lines of....'You should leave him, and you're happy to put up with that, your husband is a fucking nasty prick, I would never let my husband speak to me like that'.

It was a one off, I was looking to vent and I posted it in chat not AIBU! Still with him, and no he hasn't ever done that again!

Yes, that happens Nooby

But the op is not talking about a one-off

Other times someone post about something seemingly innocuous, or an apparent one-off, and then loads of other stuff comes out

Getaway - total change of subject but where did you get your username from. I want to say The Vicar of Dibley? I think Alice said it?