to think that the average MNetter has a pretty rosy view about life in the "average" relationship

[livingonthedge]

Have been lurking for a while now and have seen several threads from (usually) women who live with men who shout, swear at them or manipulate them. Replies are invariably "this is abuse so leave him".

I agree that it is abuse but am not sure about the advice or that it is as uncommon as some make out. I think that (sadly) many (usually) men (sometimes women) have real anger management issues or control issues and that the partner gets the brunt of it.

A quick poll of a friends - one with OH who frequently yells verbal abuse; one "has to have sex every day" (or OH "loses it") and one who has no access to money (just housekeeping) and has things like time to bed and to get up dictated by OH. All stay because they look at the alternative and decide to put up with it.

If someone has a career which pays enough to cover the childcare; or if they are so wealthy that they can come out of the relationship with enough to put down a reasonable deposit on a house; or alternatively if they could get social housing then maybe it is a real alternaitve but for a lot of women I do not think that the desicion is that clear cut. Life in a hostel or refuge is not something that they want for their children. In many areas getting social housing with no obvious bruises or proof of abuse isn't that easy.

"supprt from family or frends" assumes that your family agree that the relationship is abusive and that you have friends that can help. My family would not consider it abuse (note that I am not saying that it isn't abuse - I thnk that it is - but my parents would just say that women have put up with worse etc - ie would not help me (my sister was in this position and was not helped). Friends (as above) are in similar relationships and so cannot help (can't see their OHs allowing it :) ).

Am not complaining - just trying to point out what life is really like for many "normal" people. Am not sending this for some "dodgy estate" - my friends and I would be classed as "typically middle class" by most people's definitions. Life is simply not as rosy as all seem to think.

Additionally the more you value yourself and know you are a good person and owrthy of being treated with respect then you are more likely to find it easily. If you dont thats where your problems lie and you put up wth substandard treatment or situations.

I am officially in love with Herebebollox

So, so true!

I'll also pick up on what she said and elaborate, if I may. Every woman who puts up with an abusive man is normalising it in sociery and hinders all women being in respectful relationships.
If every woman refused to be treated like shit by every man, they would stop because they'd never get a shag. it's so depressingly true.

Living. He's a bit of a nasty twat, isn't he?
Why do you let him speak to you like that

My sister and I were musing the other day that we both appeared to have married 'Dad'.

Crazy hardworking, very kind, very generous, very quiet, and very very easygoing - sometimes to the point of irritation. Whilst we are both morphing into Mum.

I think you need to be careful there Jilly, getting close to blaming women for actions of abusive men.

Morloth, I would never blame women for the actions of abusive men but the fact is that if no women put up with it,no man could do it.

That isn't blame. Don;t twist words because we are singing from the same hymn sheet.

Sadly, women do put up with all kinds of shit from men. If someone is saying they " let " you do things, that's should ring an alarm bell and you need to tackle it.

"I think maybe the people who have very high expectations of how a partner should be must get through a lot of partners and sometimes end up on their own."

Rollocks. I think your idea of high expectations is my idea of the basis of any normal relationship.

Oh, and another thing.

No, I am not, " lucky" that my DH isn't a drunk or abusive or spends all our money or looks after his children or cleans his house .

I think what living is saying is that things can slowly get worse in relationship until the woman suddenly finds herself trapped. From what you say living it seems that your husband knows you're unhappy and want to leave and he's reminding you of how difficult he can make it if you do.

I do agree it would be very difficult for you to leave. But a lot of the threats that he makes against you are empty ones - for example there's no way he could "change the locks" and just stop you from seeing your children, all you'd have to do is call the police and social services and that would be sorted out pretty fast. You are entitled under law to leave him and to have joint or full custody of your children, there's nothing he can do to change that. He has worn you down so much that your fight is gone and you feel overwhelmed by the thought of leaving.

Whatmeworry, I don't doubt you have responded to this thread.

My question was whether you had actually read it.

Because I don't understand, if you have read it you could possibly make that kind of comment, flippant or otherwise.

Tis thread has probably been the best of it's kind I have ever read on mums net. I wish I could back in time to my 20 year old self and beg me to read it. If I could have taken on board even 10 % of what is being said, I could possibly have saved myself 20 years of misery and my daughter could have grown up with a father.

To dismiss what people say on here as the usual mums net screech of 'leave him' is to belittle the contributions here, and frankly gets pretty close to colluding with the sad mindset that we must all put up with a little bit of abuse in relationships, cos life without a mannis obviously too dreary to even contemplate.

And by the way, I do agree that dads provide a very important template of manhood for daughters, but there are other reasons to explain why some of us get tangled up in abusive relationships. My dad was lovely and made sure I knew just how clever and lovely he thought I was. But I had other issues to deal with, not least the rejection of my peers which goes a long way to explaining why I put up with abusive behaviour for far too long.

Spero it's a moving thread, isn't it?

Cailin, yes, I think that the gradualness of abuse is significant. And I think recognising those every first red flags is so vital.

"He points out that I do need him to look after the children"

But he doesn't notice that he needs you to look after the children? If you got run over by a bus today, he would need to look after his own children, not assume that a woman would do that for him for free with no thanks.

I agree with Spero that pretending that people shout "leave him" frivolously, is absolutely standing shoulder to shoulder with abusers and colluding in the pretence that abuse is OK. Widespread, common, even "normal" it may be. But OK? No, never.

LOL at Shirley and JS btw. I love you all too...

The trouble with the Relationships threads is that it's very easy to give advice about what is and isn't acceptable in a relationship when it's not you in it! I'd say it doesn't matter about what other people's boundaries and parameters of acceptability are, the only thing that matters is how you feel. If you feel abused, manipulated, oppressed, scared or out of your depth then you are. If you feel that in spite of other people's cynicism your relationship is largely fulfilling, and still has legs and a future then it probably does. It really doesn't matter whether the evidence stacks up against other people's relationships. If you don't feel like an equal then you are not an equal.

However, there are some people who are so institutionalised by repeated cycles of abuse or contempt (usually going back to childhood) that they are incapable of recognising the massive levels of dysfunction in their relationship and they really need help to be able to see that what they live with is not normal or necessary.

OK, having not read the whole thread, I think we are confusing average with normal or desirable.

No matter how shit the average relationship may be, I would not advise your friends to stay up with a DH who verbally abused them or withheld money. "Other people have it worse" is not a reason to put up with that shit. If the average relationship is shit maybe more people need to leave their shitty partners, sort out their issues, and go on to form a normal healthy relationship where both parties respect each other and treat each other well.

(it's like saying the average adult in the UK has a BMI of over 25, that may be true but that doesn't mean that's what you should be aiming for)

I agree Fellatio, and it's difficult to tell the difference between those kinds of relationships on here. I think, however, that if a person is posting about a particular incident then they obviously feel worried about it and I do find that often once you dig deeper there are usually a lot of other incidents behind that particular one. A person may not feel abused because they don't realise what they're experiencing is abuse. They might genuinely not know what a well-functioning relationship is like. I think I've only ever said "leave him" once but that was because it looked like the children were in danger. I think it's better to just talk to the poster and help them to come to their own realisation that things aren't right. In the long run this is more helpful as they are able to decide for themselves that it's time to leave and they are able to get angry enough to stand up for themselves.

I do think saying "leave him" early on in a thread is a bad idea, not because it's wrong but because it's likely to alienate the poster who might feel overwhelmed and judged.

I would join in the herebe love in were it not for the fact that I am resentful that weren't around in 1997 when I really needed you, dammit.

Callin, I agree to some extent. It is often difficult to judge how you van best challenge someone without alienating them at an early stage.

But I was quite shocked bybanother thread when the op described some really quite nasty behaviour and said 'but I am not going to leave him so don't suggest it'

I do wonder whether people are posting on threads like this, asking for views, because deep down they do know it is wrong and they do want help coming to terms with it.

I would always err on the side of challenge - those who cared about me challenged me to leave an abusive relationship for many months before I could listen. I shudder to think where I would be now if they had all held their tongues for fear of upsetting me.

I do believe that some women genuinely don't see how they live as controlled or restrictive or abusive.

I know a woman whose husband controls every penny in the house. She is on maternity leave and has no money. She is dressed in old tatty clothes and he gives her enough money for toddler group. He fills her car with petrol and keeps a book where he writes down every penny she " owes" him. They have lived like this for twenty years. She has never and would never stand up to him so she gets what she settles for. Her husband thinks I'm an old harridan .

I'll say again, many women see the kind of control over where they go and what they where as proof of love . I hear women say, with pride, " Oh, he won't let me drive".

How do you change the mindset of these women? I don't know.

Another cheer for herebe from me.

I actually think one of the most worrying posts on this thread is the one that says that if your expectations are too high you might "end up" on your own.

Is that honestly the worst outcome that can be imagined? Surely it is a million times better to be single, in charge of your own decisions and actions, confident that you and only you will influence what your children see in the home?

I was mainly single throughout my late teens and early to mid twenties. I lived on my own for a couple of years. Guess what? I had a great time. I did exactly what I wanted to do without having to think about anyone else's needs and wishes. I have been in a fulfilling relationship for over 10 years now and I would never want to be without DP, but that is because I love HIM and our life together, not just because I don't think I could be happy alone. I have been happy single and I could be happy single now if DP and DS had never happened.

We still seem to be hugely conditioned to think that the only acceptable end result of a woman's life is to be married, ideally with children. I do know a couple of people who are single and unhappy about it, but I wonder if some of that comes from the realisation that they are not living up to what society expects of them, rather than actively feeling lonely. If we were more positive about single life as a society, perhaps more women would feel able to walk away from unhealthy relationships.

To dismiss what people say on here as the usual mums net screech of 'leave him' is to belittle the contributions here, and frankly gets pretty close to colluding with the sad mindset that we must all put up with a little bit of abuse in relationships

Spero, this is MumsNet, and there are lots of people on this thread screeching "Leave Him".....

My actual comment was lampooning something that I found a tad presumptuous, if you go back and actualy look. It also had a tongue in cheek icon next to it. That means "do not take this too seriously"

If you bothered to read my posts before calling me a tool, you would have seen that I argue that:

(i) Women are able to leave bad relationships in bigger numbers than ever before, owing to largely positive changes in law, economics, attitudes etc - sothere is less and less need to hang around in bad ones.

(ii) But,that some of the things the OP has said imply to me that this may not be about abuse per se, but a relationship under stress and people behaving in that way.

I personally think the OP has a point, that there is a grey area in relationships between "everything is going swimmingly" and "leave him"

And, I would like to think it is possible - on MumsNet - to have a different viewpoint to the prevailing one on this thread without being told I am an abuse denier, and being called a tool.

Is that Being Unreasonable?

No you are not being unreasonable and I was harsh because I was angry.

But I don't think this is the thread for flippant comments. And I don't think a cutesy little icon next to a dodgypost makes everything ok.

No one is screeching on this thread.

Again, using words like screeching to describe posters' expressions of concern, is a way of undermining and trivialising the advice being given.

I just wonder why anyone would want to do that. You can disagree with advice, you can express your POV vigorously, but why would you use sexist terms like screeching (no-one would describe a man giving advice as screeching) to describe a POV you might not agree with?

Every woman who puts up with an abusive man is normalising it in sociery and hinders all women being in respectful relationships.

Absolutely, Jilly. and not only that, they will raise next generation of men and women who also think that abusive relationships are normal, because this is what they saw. A friend of mine is in such a relationship exactly because her parents were. And they have a teenage daughter who has only seen her parents cream, call names and treat each other with utter contempt. Of course she will think it is totally acceptable as well - it's very difficult to break out of this cycle.

Otherwise I agree with what has been said here several times. Yes, there might be many abusive relationship and miserable couples, but this is not "normal".

I found myself in an abusive relationship once - probably because my childhood was fab and my own dad was so kind & gentle; I was honestly naive in thinking all men would be the same. Once in a downward spiraling relationship; confidence knocked, constantly slightly fearful... I changed (momentarily losing my faith in the right to be respected and cared for) and it was easy to think that perhaps the abuse was 'normal'.
I can therefore understand the original post - because I did put up with it for a while... but I vehemently disagree.. Having since had fantastic relationships with caring, respectful, trustworthy people, I am forever grateful to have found the strength to change my fate & my children (who came along much later in a loving marriage) will never have to live in that kind of atmosphere. It's so much better to be yourself and have people love and laugh with you - and I hope people can tell the difference between the occasional heated outburst and constant belittling/abuse...

"Every woman who puts up with an abusive man is normalising it in sociery and hinders all women being in respectful relationships."

Hmm. There's an uncomfortable truth in that of course. I know the person who posted this did not mean to imply that the women in abusive relationships are therefore responsible for the normalisation of abuse in relationships, but I guess we all need to be quite careful about how we express our thoughts on this.

On one level it's true - how can a woman who is constantly being told by society, her friends, hre relatives, that abuse is normal, do anything other than normalise it herself? But I think I'd prefer to take the spotlight away from women, who cannot prevent men from abusing them, and put it back where it belongs - on men, who can prevent themselves from abusing women, should they choose (and most of them do).

How about re-formuating that thought like this: Every man who abuses his partner, normalises abuse in society and hinders all women from being in respectful relationships. Every man who carries on having a regular friendly beer with a man he knows is abusing his wife or partner, is supporting that abuser and normalising abuse. Every man who warns his partner not to get involved when she expresses her anxiety about the abuse of her friend, is normalising abuse. Every man who says that as long as a man is good at football and turns up when he says he will and doesn't think he can treat his friends the way he can treat his wife, is OK by him, is normalising abuse of women.

I think we should always always always put the responsibility for the abuse of women right back where it belongs - with the group with the power to change it. Men.

Sorry, it is possibly my fault for introducing the word 'screech' as shorthand for the unjustifiable stereotyping of advice given about abusive relationships. I agree that in the same way Margaret Thatcher was called 'shrill' this kind of vocabularly is just another way of telling women to get back in their box and to attempt to ridicule genuine concerns.

But i honestly don't think I have ever read a thread with some knee jerk reaction to initial post as simply 'leave him'. It appears to have become some jolly in joke on mumsnet - my husband forgot to buy my favourite jam! Response: leave the bastard!

And that is all very nice but I would hate to think that someone who genuinely wanted help to leave an abusive relationship could be persuaded against learning anything from these threads because a view is allowed to harden that we all are feminazis with unrealistically high expectations.

Hereb, you are of course right to express caution about blame being attached to women in abusive relationships. How about we move away from concepts of blame and look more to issue of taking responsibility for your own health and happiness?

It wasnt my 'fault' that I was emotionally abused in a number of relationships, but after the first it is a pity that I didn't get some help to findout why I had got into that situation and why I put up with it for so long and why I was so enmeshed in this idea that only women with male partners can ever be happy or fulfilled.