to think that the average MNetter has a pretty rosy view about life in the "average" relationship

[livingonthedge]

Have been lurking for a while now and have seen several threads from (usually) women who live with men who shout, swear at them or manipulate them. Replies are invariably "this is abuse so leave him".

I agree that it is abuse but am not sure about the advice or that it is as uncommon as some make out. I think that (sadly) many (usually) men (sometimes women) have real anger management issues or control issues and that the partner gets the brunt of it.

A quick poll of a friends - one with OH who frequently yells verbal abuse; one "has to have sex every day" (or OH "loses it") and one who has no access to money (just housekeeping) and has things like time to bed and to get up dictated by OH. All stay because they look at the alternative and decide to put up with it.

If someone has a career which pays enough to cover the childcare; or if they are so wealthy that they can come out of the relationship with enough to put down a reasonable deposit on a house; or alternatively if they could get social housing then maybe it is a real alternaitve but for a lot of women I do not think that the desicion is that clear cut. Life in a hostel or refuge is not something that they want for their children. In many areas getting social housing with no obvious bruises or proof of abuse isn't that easy.

"supprt from family or frends" assumes that your family agree that the relationship is abusive and that you have friends that can help. My family would not consider it abuse (note that I am not saying that it isn't abuse - I thnk that it is - but my parents would just say that women have put up with worse etc - ie would not help me (my sister was in this position and was not helped). Friends (as above) are in similar relationships and so cannot help (can't see their OHs allowing it :) ).

Am not complaining - just trying to point out what life is really like for many "normal" people. Am not sending this for some "dodgy estate" - my friends and I would be classed as "typically middle class" by most people's definitions. Life is simply not as rosy as all seem to think.

I do get what you are saying OP. I know people in shitty marriages whose DH are emotionally or verbally abusive. It is more common I think than some people realise. And it is difficult to leave. One work colleague in this situation did leave with her 3 children, but ended up going back to her DH. She just found it too hard with money worries, housing difficulties and her parents constantly nagging her to get back with her DH.

And I know some parents see this type of relationship as perfectly normal. They will say things like "well he isn't hitting you or drinking at the pub all day so whats your problem?"

But the people I know in this situation are generally unhappy underneath even if on the surface that doesn't seem the case. And it doesn't give their children a good template for future relationships. One past bf came from a family like this and I think it had affected all the children negatively. They certainly didn't have positive memories of their childhood.

I personally think it would be better to live alone with my DC than being in a relationship with an emotionally or verbally abusive DH. But I do accept that the period of leaving the DH and building a new life would be hard.

I do agree that people are too quick to shout abuse on here. Anyone can lose it and say something they don't mean, shout or shove. So I would never say leave someone because of one or even 2 incidents. There are times where I have said things I shouldn't have when life was really tough.

Would it be easier for you to tackle if you thought about a good and bad relationship rather than an abusive one? Certainly having a DH being verbally nasty on an ongoing basis is not a good relationship. You could seek help to change it e.g. through counselling with relate. But if he wouldn't change would you leave him?

The only way to stop it, is to leave.

It is the 'equally unpleasant' part of your story people are having a problem with I think.

For women who respect themselves, it isn't equally unpleasant.

I know Hully that just makes me angrier.

Sorry living. You're still making excuses.

People know that shouting and screaming at the person you are meant to "love", making life difficult by withholding money, controlling someone through intimidation etc etc etc... is wrong.

Abusers KNOW that it's wrong - that's why they usually only subject their partners and children to it. I'd bet my last pound coin that your husband doesn't shout and scream at work.

In your friend's case I would look at opening my own account and getting a job

how - doing what??? Am assuming that you live somewhere where work that can be fitted in around the school run/school holidays etc is easy to find. It isn't here - have plenty of friends all looking - we are rural so not a lot about anyway.

Yes if she could retrain and/or start by paying to go to work (ie earn less than childcare and work up from there) then okay but she cannot as her OH will not fund it.

like it or not we still live in a society where there is an assumption that the earning half of a partnershp will provide - even child benefit is about to be removed from partners of high earners - am not trying to divert to CB discussion - just using this as an example of how intrinsic to our society the idea that the high earner will provide is. There is no law though that says that a high earner with children has to have a joint account or give the non workign OH a penny to spend of their own. the divorce lawas also appear to have changd so that there is now all this emphasis on "reaching your own settlement" which isn't that easy if you are trying to leave a control freak.

Oh and I think posters on MN are very aware and clued up that millions of women lead miserable lives with men who treat them like crap. There's a reason that posters tell people in abusive relationships to leave.

I'd bet my last pound coin that your husband doesn't shout and scream at work actually he does - they are all men - he shouts and gets shouted at - he often works from home and I have heard them all f'ing and blinding on the phone - the clients shout at them and they are expected to take it (and it is a top 250 company).

Morloth - I think often the only way to stop it is to leave. But not always. Some partners will change if they know they have to and are confronted with the fact that their behaviour isn't acceptable and that their OH will leave if they don't change.

I don't think physically abusive men will change. But sometimes at the lower end of verbal or emotional abuse people are brought up to think this is part of a normal relationship.

I remember being shocked by a male friend at 17 who was always nice but would think nothing of opening his OH's letters or looking at their mobile phone. He came from a very disfunctional family and honestly thought this was just normal behaviour.

Rape within marriage was criminalised quite a long time ago I think!

But even if it was still legal what kind of man would force his own wife to have sex?? Seriously - what kind of man would hurt and belittle the mother of his children, a person he is supposed to love and cherish?

Yes, we all get tired and grumpy, we all snap and get unpleasant occasionally. But if I snap with my daughter, I will tell her off and then I will apologise if I know I over reacted. What I won't do is scream at her, throw things at her, tell her she is shit or stupid.

Because I love her and I don't want to use her as a punch bag for my own bad moods. That is disgusting, unforgivable behaviour. It isn't acceptable even as a one off.

We don't need a law to tell us we don't abuse the people we love.

And as for him telling you you are 'slightly mad', massive great clanging alarm bell number 30000 should now be ringing in your ear.

Re work - try watching Gordan Ramsey on TV - he is probably a perfect role model for my OH and many others.

Ah right. OK then. He get's shouted at as well? I wonder if you do much shouting at him at home?

Never mind. I think you've got a lot invested in this relationship - of course! I think what you need to consider is that we are all just internet sprites, and if posters believe that someone is living in a way that is detrimental (either to the poster or to their children) then of course, they are going to say so.

I know you want to normalise what happens in your home, and in the homes of your friends - and it might be "normal" but that doesn't make it right.

I have lots of friends in shitty SHITTY relationships, they know it's shitty, I know it's shitty; they're just not ready to leave - maybe they never will be. Doesn't stop me telling them that they don't have to put up with it though.

So she might have to pack the kids and up and move away from your rural area. She might have to take a job that doesn't fit with school hours and pay a child minder, she might have to claim benefits and stay at home somewhere not very nice.

There are options, it may be that all of them suck, but they exist.

How do you think other women do it? Do you think they are all either very rich or have no children? There are organisations to help her, she could call Womans Aid to get some ideas on how to get started.

As I said, make the deal by all means, but don't pretend that isn't what you are doing.

You have decided that what you have is better than what you could have without him. Fine, but don't try to tell other women to accept the same deal when they know (sometimes through personal experience) that that particular deal is a lot of shit or that the women on MN are somehow doing something wrong by saying 'No Deal'.

What do you want us to say?

You say it's alright if you're poor and eligible for social housing - but everyone is entitled to social housing. A millionaire could apply if they wanted to. True, they wouldn't get far up the list if they had the means to buy their own place, but they would be allocated a place on that list with everyone else.

When you get to the point that enough is enough, trust me, you would live under a bridge. You would live in the shittiest of shitholes, as long as you were safe. Thankfully, most social housing or private rents which are willing to accommodate housing benefit clients, yes, sometimes even without a deposit upfront, are in alright areas and in good condition. It's like you're putting up loads of barriers to this almost to excuse the fact you aren't leaving. Which probably means you have a bit of cognitive dissonance about the idea. If you were really truly happy with your decision, why would you make excuses for it? If you really would like to make a different decision, why are you blocking yourself like this at every turn?

I think you tend to attract friends who have a similar mindset to you, even if you don't realise it. The friends I made around school/college time, their relationships are all kinds of low-level screwed up, nothing major, but still stuff that I wouldn't put up with now. Conversely, I've noticed that the friends I've made since moving here (ie after splitting up with XP and changing my outlook massively, mainly due to MN threads) are all in absolutely lovely relationships, their husbands are all nice, normal people who get involved with the DC, treat their wives with respect without even thinking about it, they don't get scary when they get angry, they are just pretty much a perfect example of a healthy relationship. And I didn't meet their partners until long after the friendship was established, so it's not like I went around consciously thinking "Ugh, I won't be friends with her, her boyfriend is a prick!" or "Oh, you would be a good friend to have now, your relationship is great!" Coincidence maybe, but I think probably more of an example of how we unconsciously choose friends who mirror things that we believe in order to back ourselves up.

Rape within marriage was criminalised quite a long time ago I think 1991 in the UK - I don't think that this is that long ago. 1993 the UN made it illegal under the human rights act but it is still not an offence in lots of countries.

I agree some of these men are just as bad at work as at home. But that doesn't make it right.

Thing is some DO make the choice to stay. It is always a choice, there is always a choice to leave.

Short term it may be incredibly difficult, it may be materialistically hell, but sometimes financial deprivation is better than the abuse.

their husbands are all nice, normal people who get involved with the DC, treat their wives with respect without even thinking about it

so does mine in public :) that is partly my point

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what you want.

Oh yes, I know that, but these are my friends, people I know well, I know someone who is abusive will be different behind closed doors, but there are small signs you pick up on. The kinds of things you moan about to your friends when in a healthy relationship are so different to the kinds of things you get upset about when you aren't. Though perceptions can change, I've been worrying about one friend whose DH always seemed lovely, but since they had a baby he seems to have turned into a selfish arse.

To feel normal, I think...to be told that it isn't a problem so she doesn't feel bad about it.

Well, to me it isn't normal, it is a problem and I would be mad as hell.

A person who is subjected to abuse over a long period will usually come to think the way you do living - that there's no way out, that it's too difficult, that staying is easier. It happens because the abused person loses confidence, and often becomes depressed. It makes life a lot easier for the abuser as he or she doesn't have to deal with any resistance, they can just live as they please their partner will let them walk all over them.

OP I am really curious about your background, because you seem to have some very contradictory ideas.

On the one hand, you say you have very unsupportive parents, which means at some times in your life you must have had to fend for yourself and be a strong woman and overcome some obstacles.

But now, it seems very hard for you to imagine it's possible to overcome some of the barriers you are describing. It's not that you just think it would be hard -- it would be impossible.

If your friends are feeling the same way, it's no wonder you are all reinforcing each other's feelings of passivity. I suspect if one of you manages to break free, the rest of you will follow suit.