To think that SOME (not all) working Mums take the P@ss

[Islandlady]

Long story short, my mate works in an office with 2 WMs neither seem to work a full week or full hours but my mate fully understands the pressures and responsibilities of a WM so hasnt really complained even though she has been in the office until 8 sometimes to get the work done when she has been on her own due to both WMs being off especially during the school hols when there has been child care problems.

But now she is hopping mad, she booked a holiday to come and stay with me and DH on the island way back in February - she would have liked to have come during Cowes week but thats during August so decided to come for Bestival which starts end of this week, she has booked and paid for her Ferry tickets plus booked and paid for her animals to go into kennels, her holiday has been on the office planner and the office diary since Feb I have booked the same time off work and my DH has cleared his freelance work so we can all spend time together we will do Bestival and then she will stay at ours and we will go out for days (if it stops raining)

Last week one of the Mums blithly tells her that she is taking her DS to Disney World next week as its cheaper and if she doesnt go he wont have had a proper holiday and expected my Mate to fall in with her plans IE cancel her own Holiday.

The Boss is being a wimp, he says they cant both go together, first he says if they argue neither can take the time off, then after my Mate complained to the MD has agreed that she can go and the Mum cant.

Now my mate is a pariah in the office the Mum spent all Monday weeping in the toilet and took Tuesday off with 'stress' Mate has had to endure comments like 'I hope you are proud of yourself' from the other Mum in her office and another Mum called her (my Mate) selfish and nasty.

aibu to think thats its Working Mums like that who give other WMs a bad name and even stop some employers taking them on, or would the WMs here
think my Mate is the unreasonable one

sorry for long post

Linerunner,
I do not think people have a problem with parents taking leave for hospital appointments and as long as both parents share the duties I have no problem with this being paid leave.
My objection is the idea that having a child gives you the right to have every christmas, NY and easter off and expect colleagues to have to work these days each and every year. that is unfair, and in most places not allowed.

I think anyone who didn't understand that a child needed to be accompanied by a parent to a hospital appointment could go whistle. That is a totally understandable need and is unlikely to fall on Christmas / New Year / Bank Hol. It's a one off (albeit a repeatable) need.

But I am talking about those who assume childless people will cover all the above holidays.

I work in a industry that are hours as required and see how difficult it is for women to remain in it once they have kids. I support them. I don't mind in the slightest that they have to leave by 6/7pm (accepted finishing times in my field) and I'm still there till 9pm. Because they accept they have to get online when the kids go to bed / partner gets in. Or they work a Saturday morning o pick up the slack and tell me to stay home. Teamwork all round.

X Post Kelly!

I wonder why you think it is acceptable. Saying we live in a society that allows men to behave like pigs so accept it, is not on.
And having to work every christmas etc every year because a colleague has children is picking up the slack for the parents, both the mother and the father. And loudlass has said she is taking the time off regardless of whether she got there first or not.
If you take a job where the working days include christmas etc then that is as much part of the job as your paycheck. The benefits of working are you have more moeny, the downsides are you have to work at times when it would be better to get home. A year is plenty of time to get alternative childcare which is available at christmas.

I've read 4 pages and cannot read any further.

I was a single mother who worked full time in the finance industry for ten years before having to move overseas due to my now husbands job and now working part time in a school.

Where I worked I was often the one who was first in and last out, and I was not working with part - timers. Frequently the younger ones would call in sick on a Monday morning and not come in until the Tuesday. Whereas I would be taking work home, getting up and working from 6am until I had to drop my son off at the CM's (0730) go to work, work until 1730 and then bring work home and work until 2200 when my son had gone to bed. Frequently I would be late back to pick my child up from the CM, but I felt like I had no choice. If my ds was ill my Mum would take the day off. At job interviews I was often asked how I would get to work if my ds was sick, and I would often have to explain my situation.

So, yes, to a degree I do feel this woman is giving working mothers a bad name.

Oh, and holiday was only agreed if no-one else was off and you were only allowed to book 3 months in advance. First come, first served - no exceptions.

Kelly - I don't think it's acceptable for men to just abdicate their responsibilities (and I'm very surprised that you think that is what I am saying actually) What I'm telling you is that it appears to be ignored as a serious issue by government after government. This means that the CSA is a toothless beast. What should Loudlass do NOW. Tomorrow, this year, next year when she has no other alternative.

The father won't help and the CSA are powerless. So, I'm not accepting it I am saying that it's all well and good to say "Oh this is how it should be" and yes, I agree that it's all wrong and fucked up the way it is now - but on an individual case to case basis, what should single mothers, who struggle to pay their childcare costs as it is actually DO?

And please don't say go to the CSA.

Kelly, My exH refuses (and apparently is perfectly entitled to refuse) to have his own children on any of their inset days - 6 each per year - so that's immediately 12 days annual leave I've used up.

He also refuses to have them for any part of the half-term holidays. That's another 15 days.

I have already gone over a normal annual leave allowance.

Which is why I have to make up the time whenever I have a clinic appointment with my DD - oh yeah, guess what, he can't take her to any of these appointments either, because he's ... working.

Not sure what my point is really! Interesting convo, though.

Sorry, scab picking etc

Sian in theory that's absolutely true; having worked for a aprenting charity I know that the system when functioning is a blessing.

But the social housing got sold. My village had a road of all social houses, now we have none. A forced move would (and may, depends on LL choosing whether to extend lease every year) force us away, which in turn would force the boys out of their special needs provision becuase of tight LEA rules on provision, and the ones they would attend instead fill up a year ina dvance so there'd be no school and....

and thre was a women on here who ahs recenly lost the use of her legs whose home (rented) was declared unfir for habitation and even as it was she could only access the bathroom by dragging herself along the floor, and the council said that they would take possibly yeras to house her as they ahd nowhere adapted suitable for chidlren.

The phikosophy of provision was all well and good but it failed her.

It see,s that unless you give up on life early to get yourself a social house then you ahve little hope if things do truly go tits up. If like Dh your industry ceases to exist and you are made redundant your years of effort and self provision can actovely count against you becuase you didn;t get a council house when there were any.

You don't after all get points provided for the 40 years of tax we have paid between us (more probably- and still do just not enough any more), ou just het put at the back of a line behind people who worked the system out years before.

Which sounds bitter but it's not; it's an accepted reality that the social housing system has pretty much collapsed, heck Alvin Hall did a program about housing that covered that on Radio4 recently, if it's hit Rado 4 it must be true.

It doesn't help that my city ahs been particularly badly hit, we moved here for the university and the fact of a commutable distance to DHs employment, but whilst S E Wales is a good aplce to be if you ahve a job and want to buy, it's not if the job vanishes.

(By the way Sian do you know what carer Allowanc actually is? it's supposed to repalce a wage and is set at £55 and (IIRC) 60p a week. Most people assume it's more. I would like to think that as a graduate with s trong work ethic, an almost-finsihed MA and some sense that I would have an earning capacity somewhree above £55 a week!. If you are on benefits such as IS, they take all but £10. CA is also taxeed as income and it is quite possible to lose by claiming it- my friend, a Cm, took over care of her dying father who ahd alzheimers- and the CA caused their tax credits to be stopped. But if you don't claim, you don;t get HRP. And you don't get free school meals or any of that provided with ti either, it's now what they know as a gatekeeper benefit. It is £55.60 a week, to replace wages).

Not arguing for a rise- know the country cannot afford it- but equally people seem to assume that carers are taken care of, and no not really. We just don't have much time to scream about it.

'Oh, and holiday was only agreed if no-one else was off and you were only allowed to book 3 months in advance. First come, first served - no exceptions'

everywhere I have worked has tun that system.

Parental elave is accepted on top, but within limits, and the best employers ran flexitime so you could manage appointments etc and still do your work day. I always liked flexi as I am someone who loves to start at 7 for an early finish, when many younger people seem to like to do the opposite- perfect.

Well as i said before I think this is something British culture needs to change, men should not just be able to pick and choose when they are fathers, as far as I am concerned you have a child it is your responsibility whether you like it or not. I do nto udnerstand why in most cases custody is not 50:50, and instead seems to be the woman with the bulk of the custody.

And I still stand by the fact that it is wrong to expect co-workers to pick up the slack because the fathers cannot be bothered to look after them. Other peoples partners or ex partners are not my responsibility. I would not mind workign every other christmas, but it is wrong to expect me to work every christmas holiday etc because it is difficult for you. It is taking the piss to expect others to work every christmas etc. It is up to the parent what they do, but they cannot expect co-workers to always be working christmas.

And the thing is Kelly you'll find a thousand threds asking why it's OK to expct British taxpayers to pick up the flack when someone could work... so somene whose formewr partner just says no and stays home can;t win can they?

personally i think where someone pays CSA they should ahve too pay extra for 1/2 inset / holiay childcare if they don't pick it up; but so many men seem to just say OK then f CSA and pack their work in that many women would still be lsoers from that.

Now it's neitehr right nor acceptable but whilst one should aim for epfection, reality still needs to be dealt with.

People have a responsibility to look for work that fits them (and LLs setting out of her working abilities matches that imo, if her Manager could not sort he should not have hired) but we don't line in an era where choice is a huge factor wrt to job seeking so...

OK then. The fact that you think that the "British Culture" needs to change and then offer no practical solutions for the fact that it is the way it is at this moment in time leaves me nowhere further to go really.

If you want Christmas off work, and the "culture" of your work dictates that you have to either a) be the first to get your booking in or b) the parent's of children get priority over childless workers; then maybe you should look at getting that culture changed?

oh.

I am a childminder and am available to my parents on Christmas/Easter (as long as they are okay with the child coming to my Christmas/Easter church service with me :)). I do charge extra, as to be expected, but the service is there if they can be flexible with the child fitting in with my plans for the day with my family. I know other childminders who do this too. There is also emergency care offered if you look at places like www.emergencycare.co.uk (I am signed up for this and have provided emergency care myself).

On another point... my husband and his 5 colleagues get together and sort out who will cover the week btwn Christmas and New Years... they automatically discount those male colleagues with kids, and those sans kids (ie: my husband) always share those days with the other childless blokes. They have done this for the 9 years he has worked there.

Dh's last employer did the shared route, but fair swaps were encouraged and Dh rarely worked a Christmas Day (Eve was always off but was news related job and the papers go out on a Boxing Day so they worked Christmas Day- not a reporter, logistics) and he almost always worked NYE.

I am certain that as decent human beings if one of the team had been a lone parent and with either no live or willing partner they'd have found a way to help- even if working a split shift between them fixed it.

It just makes for a nicer working environment when people work together doesn't it? DHs only bother was the man who would swap for an NYE off then call in sick on NYE so Dh would be asked to cover both (only for 2 hours essential cover but still, bridge tolls / petrol the same) and the Mangers dealt with that efffectively by putting a cover rota in place on new contracts.

keepthechange,
Why should I be punished because some stranger does not want to look after his children. It is not my problem at the end of the day, there are childcare services available, parents have at least a year to arrange and find these and put money aside to pay the extra costs. It is their responsibility to look after their own children at the end of the day, and they cannot expect everyone else to work Christmas for them.
The attitude that parents must be given all the holidays off is bad for parents especially women as it is not possible for a company to have only parents there as there will be no-one else to run the place at christmas. In loudlass's case what would happen if everyone had children, would the shopkeeper be prepared to shut the shop down, or would they start to make a point of not hiring parents?

From reading your posts kelly it appears that you expect to your needs to be accommodated and catered to wrt work, but you don't extend that courtesy to working parents. Your posts are littered with comments like 'Why should I do x y z'

In fact, you attack (I use that word advisedly) people who are making quiter reasonable arrangements for leave, childcare etc. In fact you accuse loudlass of being entitled when you come across as pretty entitled yourself (not to mention blinkered).

Would you care to explain why you take this attitude?

Peachy,
It is good when a team work together, but only if they work together and not solely to benefit one person. If you only have to work once christmas every two or even three years, it is not that hard and not unfair. Having to work every christmas is.

"Why should I..." and "It's not my problem"

Sounds like the sort of comments a stroppy teen would come out with.

Why do you feel you are being punished?

As I said, if you don't like the set up of the holiday booking "culture" in your work place then why don't you just change it? You know? Like you keep saying we need to change the British Culture in order to force feckless fathers to help with their children.

I think you need to leave Loudlass out of your arguments now really, because as she has said, she negotiated her holiday arrangements before she was employed. Jolly good for her. You talk about entitlement? Well if you want better/fairer working conditions then maybe you should take a leaf out of LL's book and negotiate for them before you take on a job?

I used to work for a company who wouldnt employ women with school aged children or under

Oh not officially of course, but it was taken as read. The boss was a woman as well. TBH i dont really blame them

Flip, I have no problem with people making leave arrangements, I have a problem with them hogging christmas, new year and easter every single year. But because I do not have children you think I am entitled if I expect not to work every christmas, new year, and easter year in year out and want to share the duties. Whereas if a parent expects to get those days off each year every year they are not entitled in your eyes.

So yes OP some parents do take the piss just read the thread.

Flip, it seems to me all kelly's arguing for is fairness and teamwork in situations where someone has to work christmas, and is using "i" to illustrate a valid point.

It is unfair to expect your colleagues to cover every single christmas because you can't work it, regardless of the reason why. The point is, LOUDLASS situation does impact other workers as someone has to cover her shift whether its a holiday or parental leave.

And just because LOUDLASS demanded xmas off when getting the job doesn't mean it's fair on her colleagues, who accepted the job as it was.

It's bad of the employers really.

Then book the holiday off.

Really, if people are finding this concept difficult, I really do despair.

fanjo - Loudlass negotiated her position before she started her job If she had negotiated to earn £10k more than someone else - and the employer had accepted that and thought she was worth that extra 10K because of her experience and what she'd be bringing to the role, would that be unfair as well?