To think that SOME (not all) working Mums take the P@ss

[Islandlady]

Long story short, my mate works in an office with 2 WMs neither seem to work a full week or full hours but my mate fully understands the pressures and responsibilities of a WM so hasnt really complained even though she has been in the office until 8 sometimes to get the work done when she has been on her own due to both WMs being off especially during the school hols when there has been child care problems.

But now she is hopping mad, she booked a holiday to come and stay with me and DH on the island way back in February - she would have liked to have come during Cowes week but thats during August so decided to come for Bestival which starts end of this week, she has booked and paid for her Ferry tickets plus booked and paid for her animals to go into kennels, her holiday has been on the office planner and the office diary since Feb I have booked the same time off work and my DH has cleared his freelance work so we can all spend time together we will do Bestival and then she will stay at ours and we will go out for days (if it stops raining)

Last week one of the Mums blithly tells her that she is taking her DS to Disney World next week as its cheaper and if she doesnt go he wont have had a proper holiday and expected my Mate to fall in with her plans IE cancel her own Holiday.

The Boss is being a wimp, he says they cant both go together, first he says if they argue neither can take the time off, then after my Mate complained to the MD has agreed that she can go and the Mum cant.

Now my mate is a pariah in the office the Mum spent all Monday weeping in the toilet and took Tuesday off with 'stress' Mate has had to endure comments like 'I hope you are proud of yourself' from the other Mum in her office and another Mum called her (my Mate) selfish and nasty.

aibu to think thats its Working Mums like that who give other WMs a bad name and even stop some employers taking them on, or would the WMs here
think my Mate is the unreasonable one

sorry for long post

[KeepTheChange]

[fanjobanjowanjo]

[flippinada]

kelly - you are ascribing arguments to me I haven't actually made, and don't be silly - I'm hardly calling you a bully because you disagreed (what would be the point of that?) but because you repeatedly singled someone out for criticism in an unkind manner.

As I stated, that is verging on bullying behaviour. If you don't like to be picked up on it then simply don't do it.

What I (and others) have tried to explain, several times, is that in certain situations a parent has no choice but to take leave at certain times of the year (for example summer holidays when the children are at school) if there is no childcare available and no-one to look after the DC. It's not a choice.

Saying so does not = saying 'I don't believe in equal rights and think parents deserve special treatment'. What I am asking for is not special treatment but an understanding of the very difficult circumstances faced by some parents, and that some leeway has to be given.

You go on about 'absent fathers' and how they 'ought' to be doing their share, and how you shouldn't have to cover for them when they don't, but you don't seem to 'get' that very often they can't or won't do their share. That isn't conjecture but actual fact and many women are in that situation right now. What is the working mum to do when that happens? You don't seem to have any realistic suggestions as to how that particular hurdle can be overcome.

Finally, if there is an issue with your employer and leave then you really need to address that rather than blaming working parents for taking the leave to which they are entitled.

[flippinada]

How is that special treatment, Maryz? Anyone, parent or not, can find themselves in a situation not of their own making where they have to take leave (eg medical emergency) and colleagues are left in the lurch, so why single out working mums?

I've been on both sides, having to cover for other colleagues more often than not (although that may come as surprise to those who seem to believe working mothers have access to endless leave whenever they fancy it). Sometimes it is very frustrating but it's part of working life.

[Birdsgottafly]

haven't read the whole thread but carers, even short term carers ie the person is going to recover are also allowed to take unpaid leave, as long as they can prove it.

If it is a larger employer, you can usually work out a good compromise, i was always happy to work a Saturday so the men in the office could watch football, whereas they didn't want time off when places were overun with children.

I prefered Christmas Eve off and was happy to work New Years eve/day i have never worked in a department which has encountered problems with lone working mums, it's usually the 'party heads' who are the unreasonable ones, they get an invite and expect the time off.

I have known others to complain when NR dads have had to be granted weekends off as the court has given them access on those days.

[flippinada]

"Negotiation is the only way to work this in a workplace. And if a mother says "I have to get the day off, I need it (you just want it), I have no alternative, tough", that isn't negotiation."

I agree that is not an acceptable way to behave in the workplace.

But again, why single out working mums?

I've never said the awful woman in the op (holiday demander) was anything other than sefish and unreasonable. I know lots of working mothers and don't know any that would dream of behaving in that way.

[clam]

Erm.... if the "working mum" wants to go to Disney why does she need to go the same week as the OP? It's not school holidays anymore, so if her DC is going to miss school anyway, surely it doesn't matter which week it is?

If the entitled woman has already booked it without official sanction then she's stupid.

[hairylights]

Yes, some do and some don't in my experience. This woman sounds like. nightmare.

I have had people tell me they should get priority for holidays as they have kids and I've always said no, first come, first served and i'm happy to grant holiday requests as long as there is cover and the work is done.

[kelly2000]

Flip,
I have not singled out anyone, the person in question, and others including you continually kept using her and singling her out as an example, and demandinn people say what she do, and demanding that it was reasonable for someone like her to get every single christmas new year, and easter off every single year at the expense of people who did not have children. Abd I still say that the attitude if other people book them off before me, they are leaving the employer in the lurch as I am going to take those days off regardless is what gives working parents a bad name.
And christmas etc are not emergencies in the same way as a child going to hospital etc. If someone only has to work every other year at christmas then two years to arrange chidlcare is not an issue.

[Ifancyashandy]

Agreed Kelly

[slavetofilofax]

''How is that special treatment, Maryz? Anyone, parent or not, can find themselves in a situation not of their own making where they have to take leave (eg medical emergency) and colleagues are left in the lurch, so why single out working mums?''

Because working Mums can find childcare! They may have to pay over the odds through an agency, but they can do it. It's not like Christmas comes as a surprise every year, it just takes planning. Medical emergencies cannot be planned for, are not a choice a person has made, nor is an employee available to look after a broken leg for however long you need.

[CardyMow]

I understand that it may seem like I feel 'entitled' to have every christmas off, but I negotiated those terms, and explained my reasons to my employers at my interview. If they were unhappy with that, they didn't have to give me the job!

I am willing to cover some Saturdays (for the 18-22 yo's I work with to get over their hangovers) as long as it is on the weekends that my dc are with their fathers, every other weekend I can do an early Saturday shift as and when needed, as I would only need to get DD looked after, and one of her friends' mums has said that's ok. So I WILL be returning the favour, at a different time, that will suit my new colleagues quite well.

I have no problems with give and take in a workplace, and I try my best to reciprocate as much as possible, but what I ask for in return is the ability to either book Christmas Day and Boxing Day as leave or to be able to take those days as unpaid parental leave. Which my boss is fine with.

[kelly2000]

Loudless, I am not going to talk about your situation just in case disgareeing with you is considered bullying by one or two people on here.

But it is entitled to expect others to work every christmas, new year, and easter simply because a person has children. Children are important to their parents, those parents cannot expect their children to be important to their co-workers. It is possible to get childcare at christmas, certainly as it will only be needed every two or three years. If you are a parent this is your responsibility to sort out, not your colleagues.
If every working parent was like that then no-one would hire working parents, especially in times of high unemployment when they are lots of potential workers to choose from. If every worker was a parent and took either paid leave or parental leave at christmas the workplace would have to shut down then, which might only be a financial problem for shops (but still enough to discourage them from hiring parents), but would be a huge problem for hospitals, fire services, the police etc.
But parental leave is not automatically granted, companies can postpone it for certain reasons including if it would fall over a peak seasonal period. so unless it is in their contract parents do not have the automatic right to take christmas off work they have to get permission and that can be refused.

[A1980]

AS others have said it's nothing to do with WM's, it's to do with her being a bitch.

I work with several working mums and I'm forever telling one of them to go home! She's very dedicated and diligent. In contrast, many of the youngesters in my office has a little clique going on. They don't have any children, they walk in several minutes late, take a full lunch hour together and leave a full 5-10 minutes early every day.

You can't generalise by saying all WM's are like that.

[CardyMow]

Kelly2000 - other people are saying you are bullying me - I just see that we have different (very different) viewpoints on this issue. I DO understand your feelings on this, I wish my situation was different, but wishing something is different and facing the reality of my life are two totally different things.

One day, my dc will all have grown up and left home, and then I will have NO PROBLEM about covering Christmas day and/or Boxing day for other colleagues, it's swings and roundabouts really.

Right now I need that help in order to get back to work, in a few years, others may well need that help more than me. And I will then be in a position where I can be sympathetic to their problems and help THEM out.

I think we can safely say that we agree to disagree, Kelly2000.

[Morloth]

I think Loudlass is 'entitled' to have the days off that she chooses, not because of her situation with the kids but because she has her shit together.

Why shouldn't she use the option if it is provided by her employer?

When I go back to work in January I need 3 weeks off in April next year. This isn't negotiable, I have the dates booked and will not be working then. If any employer can't agree to that, then I can't work there. I am not asking for anything special, I am setting out what I am willing to do for them.

Some people think and plan ahead, this pays off, I don't see why anyone should whine about it if they are not willing to do the same. If you can't/won't book ahead it isn't the problem or fault of those of us who do.

[kelly2000]

Morloth, The earlier issue was that loudlass said she would take the time off regardless of whether someone else booked it first.

[LDNmummy]

Some leeway for WP's is ok if it is along the lines of simple things such as a child being sick enough for a parent to take time off work.

Your friend is dealing with a horrid and entitled person and I hope that person reads this thread because it is not on.

[GothAnneGeddes]

Loudlass - You have saintly levels of patience. Also, you made a key point, you won't always have childcare responsibilities. Since we're all going to be working until 65+, there's plenty of time for everyone to do their share of the crappy shifts.

[kelly2000]

Goth,
Its still not fair on people who are childless, saying do not worry once my offspring are 16 you can get a turn at having christmas off, is not on. We either have equality or we do not.
Like LDN says some leeway is fine, expecting every christmas , easter and NY holiday off every year at the expense of other colleagues is not leeway, it is exercising a sense of entitlement. having to arrange an extra day or twos childcare every two or three years for your own children is not a big burden.

[GothAnneGeddes]

Kelly - I'm not massively keen to engage with you after you've been so spectacularly rude to Loudlass, but you'll find it is very rare that someone expects all those days off. Usually people work either Xmas or New Year and aren't that concerned about the bank holidays. many work places keep a record of Xmas off duty, so it's not the same people doing the same shifts each year.

What's this about "proper hours" upthread? I work the hours I'm paid to do, same as anyone else. That my hours are fewer does not mean I am any less capable at my job then anyone else and no, I don't work in an office beofre anyone grumbles about leaving paperwork for others.

[LDNmummy]

Have not read the whole thread but have to agree with Kelly2000 on that last statement.

The women in my family manage to do this fine. My DM is a single parent and has had to do this for years. Other people may not have kids, but they have lives outside of work too and maybe other responsibilities that others are not aware of.

Of course if it is a prior arranged agreement with your management fair enough, but morally it should be an arrangement that makes sure all colleagues are treated as fairly as possible.

[Morloth]

It is amusing to me that that this thread was started to complain about a working mother feeling entitled because she hadn't booked ahead and someone else had and has turned around to bitching about a working mother feeling entitled because she does book ahead.

Women eh? Wanting kids and jobs.

[nooka]

I think this is more about employers having very clear arrangements for leave taking. I've not worked anywhere where I had to work on Christmas day, but my team did have to provide cover over the Christmas period and it was always a bit tricky to make sure it was fairly done. I would not have allowed a member of staff to book time off in a way that screwed the rest of the team, and for my small team that meant taking it in turns unless someone volunteered (we did have a JW on the team for a few years which made things much easier as she positively wanted to work then). For Christmas (it was never such a problem at Easter) we did not have a first come first served system because I think that would have created a lot of bad feeling. I always asked all the team what they would like and then tried to work out fair arrangements from there (and you weren't allowed to book Christmas holidays in January).

I do have family members who work in 24/7 type settings and alternating years seem to be pretty much the rule. As to whether an employer is unfairly affecting non parents by positive discrimination in favour of working parents probably depends on the team balance. In a large mixed team it probably isn't a huge deal, in a small team or where there are very few non-parents I think it could become a significant problem.