To think that SOME (not all) working Mums take the P@ss

[Islandlady]

Long story short, my mate works in an office with 2 WMs neither seem to work a full week or full hours but my mate fully understands the pressures and responsibilities of a WM so hasnt really complained even though she has been in the office until 8 sometimes to get the work done when she has been on her own due to both WMs being off especially during the school hols when there has been child care problems.

But now she is hopping mad, she booked a holiday to come and stay with me and DH on the island way back in February - she would have liked to have come during Cowes week but thats during August so decided to come for Bestival which starts end of this week, she has booked and paid for her Ferry tickets plus booked and paid for her animals to go into kennels, her holiday has been on the office planner and the office diary since Feb I have booked the same time off work and my DH has cleared his freelance work so we can all spend time together we will do Bestival and then she will stay at ours and we will go out for days (if it stops raining)

Last week one of the Mums blithly tells her that she is taking her DS to Disney World next week as its cheaper and if she doesnt go he wont have had a proper holiday and expected my Mate to fall in with her plans IE cancel her own Holiday.

The Boss is being a wimp, he says they cant both go together, first he says if they argue neither can take the time off, then after my Mate complained to the MD has agreed that she can go and the Mum cant.

Now my mate is a pariah in the office the Mum spent all Monday weeping in the toilet and took Tuesday off with 'stress' Mate has had to endure comments like 'I hope you are proud of yourself' from the other Mum in her office and another Mum called her (my Mate) selfish and nasty.

aibu to think thats its Working Mums like that who give other WMs a bad name and even stop some employers taking them on, or would the WMs here
think my Mate is the unreasonable one

sorry for long post

[northerngirl41]

Completely agree hairylights

I can't think any other lifestyle choice which gets protected by law either - it would be fairer if everyone was entitled to ask for flexible working or discretionary days off when having a domestic crisis, but only parents actually get the legal protection, and thus is breeds resentment when say, a parent gets to leave at 4:45pm each day to pick up their child from nursery, but someone with an elderly parent suffering from alzheimers isn't allowed to wait till the home help arrives to start work @ 9:15am.

It's a double standard and it shouldn't be allowed.

[hairylights]

It's a working parent issue when it's parents who are doing this! It is more prevalent IMHO with parents who stomp their feet and demand that they should be given the pick of time off I've encountered it over and over again.

I've never had someone tell me that because they are young and into partying, they should have the pick of time off.

But I've often had parents tell me that due to them being parents, they must have priority.

[LSAR]

It is not a working mum issue this could of happen with another person in the office. It is a normal issue in a work place people wanting the time off and not getting it cos someone else has it then they ask you to swap I got that I said No cos I did get it first. I would never take the mick as some WM have done not many though cos we need the money. You got to think maybe somethings going on for that WM to get so stress or maybe she is really just wanting to give her kids a holiday cos all their friends have gone or going away and her kids feel left out. She may feel bad and guilt like her kids are gona miss out or something I reckon there is more to this WM issue. Anyway your friend should not feel bad or get treated bad in anyway.

[Peachy]

RIght well I seems to me that people have two decisions:

accept that some things are never going to be fair and let it get them down

accept somethings are set in stone but that many things can be worked around and make their owrk environment a happier palce by doing that (eg look towards home offices where feasibel, splitting shifts on the popular holiday dates, encouraging teh development of workplace nurseries whatever)

fiught like tooth and nail for eevery single priveledge and get everyone else down and make themselves unhappy


Me, I am after the middle option.

Every workplace is different and so are the solutions- it might be in a care home that people sacrifice x% of their income to cover the cost of an agency staff member, or like dh's where if you do come in Christmas you only work a half shift and get a guaranteed cover shift for the next holiday; it might be agreeing to do a 4 day week of longer days for your hours and same pay then the saving (on staff those extra hours you used) used to cover a student on a Sunday in retail.

but there is almost always some way to work towards a happier outcome that resentful staff.

[kelly2000]

I meant the general "i have kids, i therefore am taking christmas off each and every year regardless of others needs and wishes" attitude, not yours specifically.

[Peachy]

Somehow I suspect people who can get it don't live in rural south wales!

And actually you are assuming a lot about my attitude becuase as I have staed my kids are too disabled toa ccess childcare anyway, and Dh and I are working to find ways f workinga round each otehr.

But I can see how other lives would differ measurably.

[kelly2000]

peachy,
You can get childcare at christmas, people on here have even posted about it. Not everyone even celebrates christmas, and so two or even three years is plenty of time to find someone to look after your children for a day. It is not reasonable to say people who have to find a christmas childcare once every two or three years will have no choice but to quit their jobs. At the end of the day childcare is the responsibility of the parents not the co-workers.

And just as your children are more important to you than colleagues, so the things in your colleagues lives are more important to them than you or your children. If you can get in written into your contract then fine, but just expecting that others will have to work christmas etc for you because you have to arrange childcare is unreasonable. The attitude that I cannot sort out childcare two years in advance so I am taking christmas off regardless of anyone else's leave or needs is taking the piss, and it puts people off hiring parents especially at times like this when employers do have a lot more options.

[Peachy]

I don;t think childcare exists at Christmas for many people though.

That's a shame but it's so; if youa re single perhaps, and no familya round. I know it's not possible to even get childcare here after 6 or at weekends so short of hiring a Nanny (in retail unlikely to be feasible) the options are none whether you have twenty years. My sister works 7 - 7 and could not do it if she did not have Mum on all back home; she tus the lcoal nurseries and has to be there 30 minutes either side of last child leaving / arriving and she is wella ware her lifestyle hinges on Mum's health and willingness. No matter how dedicated she is- she doesn't manage a fleet of nurseries and drive a Saab for nothing!

And under emergency childcare comes the task of fitting children into provisions for once off occasions (eg if Mum is in hospital) or if a chidlcare provider is sick; perhaps it should be better named 'irregular chidlcare' but we often used the system well in advance to fit people into the chidlcare system for odd days for reviews / training sessions / whatever.

And I don;t know that; simply becuase they ahve children; it's mroe becuase they ahve chidlren and no access to support: the support bit could easily be addressed by the appropriate bodies if it were considered essential.

At some level though a parent has to mae a call: I hate upsetting and annoying people but if it came down to anoying someone at work or accepting a miserable life of benefits and a term of homelessness well clearly the work stays and I just have to accept I upset someone, for the sake of my kids, who have to come first.

[kelly2000]

Nooka,That is exactly right, it should be fair and balanced.
Peachy,
Christmas is on the same day each year, and if a worker is only working every other christmas that means they have two years to find childcare. Not exactly an emergency situation. I do not have an issue for sudden emergencies - that happens, I have an issue that some people think they are entitled to christmas off year in year out simply because they have children.

[Ifancyashandy]

Goth the point is Loudass does want / expect / need - call it what you will - those Hight Days and Holidays off every year. She has quite clearly said she will be taking them regardless of any colleagues holiday requests. In fact, she said she would just not turn up if she had been rota'd for those days.

When I asked if she thought it acceptable that she work one year / and I (hypothetically) worked the following and thus flip flopped and worked as a team, she said she would aways take those days off and I would be leaving the company in the lurch.

It's all in the thread.

[Peachy]

Morloth quite.

I agree Nooka that it's about leave policy but it's also about the lack of availability of flexible childcare. Someone upthread mentioned emergency childcare and that can eb excellent but we used to hold alist of emergency childcarers when i worlked for the aprenting charity and often as not nobody was available when it was needed. And if the child doens;t fit to type- so back to kids with SN etc- they often can't go anyway without either lots of induction and access planning or some bod from SSD yelling at you that if your child hits someone then it's your own liability (yep has happened to me when iwas trying to find childcare prior to going into labour- ended up with a doula instead).

LL does yopur contract state when you cannot work? Would it be an idea to get that done under flexible working rules, force them to think rather than assume people are happy to cover with no arragements put in place?

When Dh realised he could not be in at a certain time he used flexible work rules to get that sorted but although he ended up working regular shifts (autistic kids couldn;t cope with meltdowns) other colleagues won too becuase dh was doing 5 shifts instead of 4 and always doing one weekend night, with a total of more hours than before- that was fine for the trade off (Dh starting at 10 instead of 9 to help with the worst times with ds1).

It really should be about working to find ways to order things for everyone's benefit.

[nooka]

I think this is more about employers having very clear arrangements for leave taking. I've not worked anywhere where I had to work on Christmas day, but my team did have to provide cover over the Christmas period and it was always a bit tricky to make sure it was fairly done. I would not have allowed a member of staff to book time off in a way that screwed the rest of the team, and for my small team that meant taking it in turns unless someone volunteered (we did have a JW on the team for a few years which made things much easier as she positively wanted to work then). For Christmas (it was never such a problem at Easter) we did not have a first come first served system because I think that would have created a lot of bad feeling. I always asked all the team what they would like and then tried to work out fair arrangements from there (and you weren't allowed to book Christmas holidays in January).

I do have family members who work in 24/7 type settings and alternating years seem to be pretty much the rule. As to whether an employer is unfairly affecting non parents by positive discrimination in favour of working parents probably depends on the team balance. In a large mixed team it probably isn't a huge deal, in a small team or where there are very few non-parents I think it could become a significant problem.

[Morloth]

It is amusing to me that that this thread was started to complain about a working mother feeling entitled because she hadn't booked ahead and someone else had and has turned around to bitching about a working mother feeling entitled because she does book ahead.

Women eh? Wanting kids and jobs.

[LDNmummy]

Have not read the whole thread but have to agree with Kelly2000 on that last statement.

The women in my family manage to do this fine. My DM is a single parent and has had to do this for years. Other people may not have kids, but they have lives outside of work too and maybe other responsibilities that others are not aware of.

Of course if it is a prior arranged agreement with your management fair enough, but morally it should be an arrangement that makes sure all colleagues are treated as fairly as possible.

[GothAnneGeddes]

Kelly - I'm not massively keen to engage with you after you've been so spectacularly rude to Loudlass, but you'll find it is very rare that someone expects all those days off. Usually people work either Xmas or New Year and aren't that concerned about the bank holidays. many work places keep a record of Xmas off duty, so it's not the same people doing the same shifts each year.

What's this about "proper hours" upthread? I work the hours I'm paid to do, same as anyone else. That my hours are fewer does not mean I am any less capable at my job then anyone else and no, I don't work in an office beofre anyone grumbles about leaving paperwork for others.

[kelly2000]

Goth,
Its still not fair on people who are childless, saying do not worry once my offspring are 16 you can get a turn at having christmas off, is not on. We either have equality or we do not.
Like LDN says some leeway is fine, expecting every christmas , easter and NY holiday off every year at the expense of other colleagues is not leeway, it is exercising a sense of entitlement. having to arrange an extra day or twos childcare every two or three years for your own children is not a big burden.

[GothAnneGeddes]

Loudlass - You have saintly levels of patience. Also, you made a key point, you won't always have childcare responsibilities. Since we're all going to be working until 65+, there's plenty of time for everyone to do their share of the crappy shifts.

[LDNmummy]

Some leeway for WP's is ok if it is along the lines of simple things such as a child being sick enough for a parent to take time off work.

Your friend is dealing with a horrid and entitled person and I hope that person reads this thread because it is not on.

[kelly2000]

Morloth, The earlier issue was that loudlass said she would take the time off regardless of whether someone else booked it first.

[Morloth]

I think Loudlass is 'entitled' to have the days off that she chooses, not because of her situation with the kids but because she has her shit together.

Why shouldn't she use the option if it is provided by her employer?

When I go back to work in January I need 3 weeks off in April next year. This isn't negotiable, I have the dates booked and will not be working then. If any employer can't agree to that, then I can't work there. I am not asking for anything special, I am setting out what I am willing to do for them.

Some people think and plan ahead, this pays off, I don't see why anyone should whine about it if they are not willing to do the same. If you can't/won't book ahead it isn't the problem or fault of those of us who do.

[CardyMow]

Kelly2000 - other people are saying you are bullying me - I just see that we have different (very different) viewpoints on this issue. I DO understand your feelings on this, I wish my situation was different, but wishing something is different and facing the reality of my life are two totally different things.

One day, my dc will all have grown up and left home, and then I will have NO PROBLEM about covering Christmas day and/or Boxing day for other colleagues, it's swings and roundabouts really.

Right now I need that help in order to get back to work, in a few years, others may well need that help more than me. And I will then be in a position where I can be sympathetic to their problems and help THEM out.

I think we can safely say that we agree to disagree, Kelly2000.

[A1980]

AS others have said it's nothing to do with WM's, it's to do with her being a bitch.

I work with several working mums and I'm forever telling one of them to go home! She's very dedicated and diligent. In contrast, many of the youngesters in my office has a little clique going on. They don't have any children, they walk in several minutes late, take a full lunch hour together and leave a full 5-10 minutes early every day.

You can't generalise by saying all WM's are like that.

[kelly2000]

Loudless, I am not going to talk about your situation just in case disgareeing with you is considered bullying by one or two people on here.

But it is entitled to expect others to work every christmas, new year, and easter simply because a person has children. Children are important to their parents, those parents cannot expect their children to be important to their co-workers. It is possible to get childcare at christmas, certainly as it will only be needed every two or three years. If you are a parent this is your responsibility to sort out, not your colleagues.
If every working parent was like that then no-one would hire working parents, especially in times of high unemployment when they are lots of potential workers to choose from. If every worker was a parent and took either paid leave or parental leave at christmas the workplace would have to shut down then, which might only be a financial problem for shops (but still enough to discourage them from hiring parents), but would be a huge problem for hospitals, fire services, the police etc.
But parental leave is not automatically granted, companies can postpone it for certain reasons including if it would fall over a peak seasonal period. so unless it is in their contract parents do not have the automatic right to take christmas off work they have to get permission and that can be refused.

[CardyMow]

I understand that it may seem like I feel 'entitled' to have every christmas off, but I negotiated those terms, and explained my reasons to my employers at my interview. If they were unhappy with that, they didn't have to give me the job!

I am willing to cover some Saturdays (for the 18-22 yo's I work with to get over their hangovers) as long as it is on the weekends that my dc are with their fathers, every other weekend I can do an early Saturday shift as and when needed, as I would only need to get DD looked after, and one of her friends' mums has said that's ok. So I WILL be returning the favour, at a different time, that will suit my new colleagues quite well.

I have no problems with give and take in a workplace, and I try my best to reciprocate as much as possible, but what I ask for in return is the ability to either book Christmas Day and Boxing Day as leave or to be able to take those days as unpaid parental leave. Which my boss is fine with.

[slavetofilofax]

''How is that special treatment, Maryz? Anyone, parent or not, can find themselves in a situation not of their own making where they have to take leave (eg medical emergency) and colleagues are left in the lurch, so why single out working mums?''

Because working Mums can find childcare! They may have to pay over the odds through an agency, but they can do it. It's not like Christmas comes as a surprise every year, it just takes planning. Medical emergencies cannot be planned for, are not a choice a person has made, nor is an employee available to look after a broken leg for however long you need.