...to feel envious towards people who actually ENJOY looking after young children/babies?

[PacificDogwood]

Well, am I?

I am very lucky to have the size of family I hoped for.
So, ok, I don't go gooey at the sight of a newborn, but still kind of thought I would enjoy looking after babies/toddler/school aged children.
Not all the time, but sometimes.

I just don't.
I find it a relentless slog of repetitive nonsense, and I don't mean the washing/dressing/feeding etc, but the dealing with older kids' fighting, 3 year olds insanity temper tantrums and active 1 year old's.... well, active/climbing/teething/ 'normal' behaviour.

And I know all this will pass and I will mourn its passing.
But I still don't enjoy it.
And am envious of parents it seems to come to so much more effortlessly.
How do others cope with the total loss of control over their lives??

I really dislike the way some parents refer to looking after/raising their own children as 'childcare'.

If you find out you don't like babies after your first then don't have any more - simple.

As to SAHMs being less well educated, maybe they are just less selfish and put their children's needs before their own.

That's what good parenting is about isn't it - putting your children first. Yes, it's hard work and the domestic chores are certainly not exciting but where did you 'well-educated' read it was easy?

It's all fine balance, it is lovely to be able to enjoy the company of your children all the time, but it's not realistic to be deliriously happy with them at all times.
Children will grow and you will look at those early years with nostalgia, remembering happy milestone times, and for the moment don't be too hard on yourself, more or less all of us are going trough daily grind in a similar way to yours, there is no effortless parenting, it's bloody hard work, and you take it one day at the time.

of course i have paid childcare.i am the parent.those who provide are paid childcare carers.straightforward economics- i pay someone else to do provide childcare in my absence as i have the ability to outsource

Karma - Education can be an indicator of intelligence. Via 11 plus exams and then A levels to get to good proper unit doing academic courses.

A child who is put first 100% of the time by it's parents will be a spoilt brat. Parents are there to teach children lessons and there is no way that everyone you encounter in life with be all about you.

Xenia.....you do talk a lot of crap.

graduates being better parents.........!!

Agree with you on that one traceybeaker
Intelligence has nothing to do with parenting. Zilch.

Education can be an indicator of intelligence - agreed.
But how on earth does more intelligence equal better ability to provide good childcare?? IME academic intelligence is often NOT associated with emotional intelligence which I think is important when dealing with children.
Academic parents/carers are better? By what standard? And not IME, btw . Don't get me started on abuse: higher intelligence/training simply often means, better at hiding/justifying abuse.

Personally, I have enough child care to cover the time when I work and a bit extra. Officially 25 hours working (in RL more like 30) over 3 days is the kind of balance I want. It is the time I spend with them and want to spend with them, I find challenging.

Yep, give me that village to raise my DCs with anytime...

pommedechocolat , not all intelligent children have access to a good quality education that results in formal qualifications. There are plenty of incredibly bright people who do not have A levels or get the opportunity to go to university.

There are lots of young people who had to leave school early, had families who were not supportive and did not value further education, who would have thrived at university given the chance. That they don't have a degree, is no reflection upon their intelligence.

Putting your child first 100% of the time, doesn't mean giving them their own way 100% of the time. Often, putting the child first, means doing something the child objects to, but which is in their best interests over all (bed times and attending school everyday, springs to mind). Part of putting your child first includes teaching them that you won't indulge their every whim, but making sure that they know you love them more than anything in the world and will always do your best for them. Obviously, we all have different ideas as to what constitutes 'best', because every family is different.

Some graduates will be good some not.

Some graduates can't even boil an egg.

But that can be said of any group of people.

Good and bad in all groups.

I can't quite see the logic of graduates making better parents and then farming your DC out to someone with lesser intelligence who wouldn't make a good parent and doesn't understand child psychology. Am I missing a strand of the argument?

exotci, nope, you are not missing anything, it just doesn't make sense .

And, oh yes, intelligence most certainly does NOT equal life skills...

exotic, even, sorry

It seems to me that Xenia is saying that anyone working in child care should have a degree and a deep understanding of child psychology. All research shows that the first 2 yrs, or first 5 yrs are the most important and yet Xenia is willing to hand her DCs over to people that she has utterly no respect for.

Xenia appears to have tied herself up in knots. On the one hand she is saying that you have to have very low intelligence to actually enjoy being with young children. But on the other, she is saying that graduates make better parents, but is willing to leave her children in the care of people who are clearly too thick to have a proper job or to even realise that they have drawn the short straw.

I am quite interested to hear her justification. Perhaps it doesn't matter where they spend the time, if they then get quality time with graduate mum?

Lenin, yes, that's a thought; 'tis where Bjorn, the au-pair comes into it again. But I don't really want anybody living with us.
And if I look for a nanny/housekeeper type person, I have to have That Conversation with my CM - which will make me her cry .

Have followed this thread over the last couple of days, biting my fist. Agree totally with karmabeliever.
I don't usually single out posters, as have no desire to enter a slanging match, but Xenia's comments have really annoyed me. You sound to me that you have chosen something that works for you, but to reassure yourself, have confined yourself to believing you have found the secret of motherhood.
You have not. Like SAHM, you are choosing what you believe works - that does not entiltle you to get into, frankly, insulting those who have made other choices.
I have two first degrees, a post grad degree, and hail from a long line of academics. My DH works hard in the city, and we have all the trappings that his work affords. I gave up my well paying career to raise my children because that is what I wanted to do. I had a working mother, and while that was her choice, I promised myself that I would stay at home, as I felt I wanted that short but valuable time with them.
To further contradict your theory, I decided that I found being at home with one child not 'enough' for me, so retrained and opened my house to other children as a child minder, then as a small nursery. Both were graded outstanding, and I doubt if any of them would insult me by referring to me doing 'dull' and essentially what you regard as work for 'less intelligent' people.
During my time in childcare, I mixed with a whole variety of CMs and nannies, and although what I saw was mainly excellent, there were some very highly regarded carers who frankly, neglected their charges. I will say no more as I don't want to be seen as alarmist - but the fact is that you can never be 100pc sure how good 'outsourcing' the care is at all times.
Anyway, I digress.
I am pleased people have the choice to find what works for them, either route is difficult, but please, do we have to hear misguided and frankly derogatory opinions awarded to those who have chosen a different route in parenthood? Or are you just making yourselves feel better by looking down on those 'less educated/intelligent' who stay at home who apparently had no real 'career' to sacrifice? Utter bollocks.

Well said, Pedicuri Especially the last bit- utter bollucks

I made the case that full time working mothers/graduates make better parents on average because generally a higher IQ means a better understanding of child psychology etc. and it was in response to someone saying having childcare was wrong (although they presumably are happy when their husband outsources the childcare to them which is a bit inconsistent and sunny Jim husband is happy to delegate so I've never understood the difference). I am happy to discuss it. It's about time the working parents of the UK put their case that they benefit their children rather than our having to listen to holier than thou martyr mothers and sexist men suggesting the only person able to look after under 5s is a mother.

Well as we all know it is usually mothers and fathers who abuse their chidlren not nurseries and nannies so there is certainly no need to be alarmist about working parents and their child care, quite the converse. In fact the more people involved in the lives of children the better as long as there are a few stable figures in their lives. OUr first daily nanny stayed 10 years and both of us too were committed to being home and with the children out of work hours.

The fact is the press every day is filled with untruths about the damage women do by working. We are up against that all the time and yet there is a good case to be made that working parents benefit their children and their chidlren do better.

Hmm karma - in my experience clever kids with no access to funds are helped out by scholarships to good schools through a state primary school noticing them - happened to both my father and my dh.

I agree intelligence is not linked to good childcare. I do think education and intelligence are linked.

Intelligent people who don't recognise the benefits of education and work hard at school/getting up job ladder or going to uni aren't, imho, that intelligent.

That is a different debate though.

On sahm vs wohm each to their own. I work two days a week and will go to one day a week when the second is here so I am sitting on the fence :)

What I never understand in these debates is the desire to attack and belittle.

pomme - my dad left school at 14 and so has no formal qualifications. He is one of the most intelligent people I know, very widely read and able to turn his hand to almost anything. I think he is far brighter than I am, but I was the one who had the opportunity to go to university. He had awful parents, a very poor background and home life, and the kind of school where most of his former classmates are now either dead or in prison. I think his teachers did their best but were struggling to get through the days, with very challenging pupils. I don't think they were looking to give out many scholarships.

There are also lots of very intelligent people for whom the academic route has simply not worked out, because they were dyslexic and this wasn't always recognised by the education system or had other SEN, that weren't catered for correctly by their schools.

I had a good friend from a traveller background, whose parents couldn't give two hoots about school. She didn't attend until she was a teenager, so obviously it was too late for her. The school labelled her as 'remedial', but she is the one who passed her driving test first time, so obviously not incapable of learning.

There are loads of people who slip through the net for whatever reason.

I just think it is wrong to label people who had opportunity and good fortune as intelligent and those who were held back through no fault of their own as not. Primarily because it allows people like Xenia to say that those without education have made the choice to sah, because they are too stupid to do anything else. It belittles the choices that people make and enables her to go through life thinking that her way is the only way, and if you choose differently it's because your IQ is low, not because you have thought it all out and have come to a different conclusion than she has.

Well said, Pedicuri .

We are all influenced by our own upbringings and will consciously or subconsciously endeaver to replicate them or do the total opposite.
My mother was a SAHM and my dad was often available during the day and a very hands-on dad (once we could walk and talk - he is useless with an 'unreasonable' baby/toddler ) and I remember the availability of my parents v fondly.
At the same time, I trained hard for my qualifications, I enjoy my job, I contribute not unsubstanstially to our family income, so I am not at all keen to stop altogether.

I have really liked the fact that we have had the same CM for over 8 years and the stability that has given us. And I am not good with change... , but appreciate I have to bite the bullet and change something.

Lenin, I have been on Childcare.co.uk for a little while and found a lot of the canditates very, very young and/or inexperienced: I fear for them if I let my lot lose on them!
Also, I have an idea in my head of what kind of person I would like: mature, maybe with her own pretty much grown-up family, lives locally, who'd be happy for the role to morph over the years from nannying/child care to more house keeping. And who will stay with us for the next 20 10 years.
Maybe having this idea in my head is NOT a good thing