To be quite pleased that my dc are a little bit scared of me.

[psiloveyou]

DS (11) was looking at a picture in the paper this morning. It was of a mum taking her young son into court to face charges after rioting.
Ds said "if I ever did anything like that mum, I would be much more scared of what you would do. You're much scarier than any policeman or court". I was actually quite pleased that he felt like that.

When I told a friend though she was horrified. She said she would be devastated if her dc were scared of her in any way. She said I was living in the dark ages if I feel like that and adults should earn the respect of children without scaring them.

Now don't get me wrong, DS and I have a brilliant relationship. I never hit (and rarely have to shout at) the dc. I do think though that a little fear is healthy and I would like my dc to feel that way about any authority figure such as teachers the police ect.

So am I living in the dark ages.

youarekidding

Why thank you. I am very proud of all of them.

But as 4 of the little demons just pinned me down and snail kissed me they are clearly not scared enough.

Must try harder.

Personally I'd rather have scared kids behaving than non scared kids behaving like shites because they know they can.

I don't believe empathy and good behaviour go hand in hand to be frank.For some kids it will and to be honest they're the sort of kid like one of my sons who will be good whatever. Kids are designed to push boundaries and think of themselves.They are designed to take notice of peer pressure.Empathy alone will do diddly squat with a lot of kids.

"People, young and not so young with no rules and no respect for authority have run wild because they simply have no fear about the consequences of their actions"

Being afraid of a parent makes you no more fearful of the consequences of your actions. You might argue that being fearful of an adult makes you less able to make sensible decisions when the need arises. It is possible to learn right from wrong without fear. I don't even train my dog using fear.

MilaMae - but why is it one or the other? Not all non scared kids will behave like shites because they know they can. Why on earth would you think that?

And fear will do diddly squat with a lot of kids.

I rarely respect people I fear. And I rarely fear people I respect

I disagree I think you ARE taking things too literally, do you not fear the consequences of upsetting or letting down the people you respect???

you also took my quote from the OP as literally meaning the dark age, when in fact I meant it as the same well known turn of phrase used by the OPs friend

though agree the difference of opinion could be a language issue, as you do seem to be misunderstanding a lot of what has been posted due to taking it in its literal sense

I don't think fear alone does much but it needs to be part of a bigger package,which yes empathy also needs to be part of.

So many good decisions I made throughout my life came about partly through fear.

Um, no, I don't fear the consequences of upsetting people. I don't want to upset people, and I strive not to, but fear really doesn't come into it. Again, it's kind of weird that people don't think this is possible.

And no, I didn't take your quote as literally meaning the dark age. What on earth are you on about?

slanted I see what you are saying - that children should be respectful because it is the right thing to do, not because of a fear of consequences if they dont. I also think that respect can and should be taught by example. However what happens when, for whatever reason, a child is not respectful - do you just let them off and hope that they learn the lesson for next time? Or do you give a consequence to show them that the behaviour is not acceptable. Even the best kids will push boundaries at some point.

I am a teacher who has just finished teaching a class of lovely, respectful children. However, they are not perfect and from time to time I have had to give them a 'consequence' if they were not behaving (in my class it happens to be putting their name on the whiteboard). The vast majority of the children are absolutely devastated if their name goes on the board and for a lot of them I only had to do it once or twice throughout the whole year (usually at the beginning). They are lovely and respectful because they know it is the right thing to do, but every now and then they just need a little bit of a nudge to remind them of that. They were not scared of me, but they were just that little bit scared of getting their name on the board!

Surely a little bit of both is best. The speeding ticket analogy is a good one - I drive under the speed limit (mostly!) because I know it is dangerous to speed and I could hurt someone. However, there is a little bit of me that also does it because I dont want to get stopped by the police because I would shit myself! None of us are perfect!

mila I empathise whooly. We have lots of children aged 7-10ish in my street who go around hurting other children, throwing stones at cars, jumping in front of cars, using trades buttons to open and latch open flats communal doors and running riot through them, throwing their balls against others houses never their own to play games. It is an open plan street but each set of flats has their own garden, these children have their own private gardens in the houses the parents own but they are sent to play in others.

They have no respect at all, the PCSO's will come out but there has so far been no actual consequence - just threat of. Apart from the fact it's open plan so a civil matter so sometimes police hand are tied, until they cause a disturbance , no-one is actually holding these children respect.

Until their parents ground them ,set boundaries, the police take action for the disturbances they'll continue to stick two fingers up at society. If they catually 'feared' the consequence, as in knew it would happen something tells me they wouldn't continue it.

samstown - I agree with much of what you say.

I am not suggesting that children should not be taught that there are consequences to their actions. Just that kids should not be scared of them (especially when they involve their parents) and that kids need to be taught a more fundamental basis for respect.

Of course they need to be aware of undesirable consequences. And of course sometimes these are 'nudges'. But for the most part, I do believe that the aim should be to teach good intentions regardless of consequences, (except in extreme circumstances), and that children really do need to understand that other people should be treated as respect simply because they are people, and there is no other reason needed.

with not as

Youare how do you handle it with your kids?

For ages I said 2 wrongs don't make a right,ignore,think of others etc,etc.This made it worse.Dp said I had to let them stick up for themselves however if they hit/shout back they're just as bad and I think pick up bad habits.

Dp went ballistic after the last incident(thank god he was at work)and has said he doesn't want our 3 ever playing out if the thug kids are out again.So basically my kids can't play with the nice kids or ride their scooter etc.

The problem kids are bored,never taken anywhere,booted out all day etc.They've damaged a car etc but mum just denies all knowledge.They kind of infiltrate any game that goes on outside

Sorry Slanted it's not enough and pretty much the whole ethos of todays society.It doesn't work without some level of fear.

It may not be nice to acknowledge but it simply doesn't.

I defy you to teach some of the secondary classes my friends have to teach and survive one day with that approach.

Oh and Slanted I'm living with the results of kids raised with no fear what so ever and it's a major pita. But hey as long as they just get gentle empathetic nudges and don't have to experience any unpleasantness.

Mila - So your friends use fear? And this level of fear that is so necessary - how's it working out so far?

Oh for crying out loud!!! i am not suggesting just gentle nudges and so on. I'm really not!

When did I say that there should be no unpleasantness?

Surely you can set boundaries without scaring people?

Do you have DCs & how old are the slanted ???

Yes, I think I am somewhere in the middle because I really believe that if a child is disrespectful then the does need to be a consequence alongside continuing to teach the correct way of behaving.

To go back to my teaching role - this year was lovely, last year there were many more challenging children. A lot of them found it a lot more difficult to be respectful for the sake of it, and for some of them, getting a bollocking and name on the board from me simply wasnt enough. However, in the school there was no consequence further than the classroom (ie. sending children to the head teacher etc.), because there were no whole school consequences in place. And some of the cleverer children knew this, as well as knowing that 'a chat with mum' wasnt going to do anything as mum would just make excuses for them. There was no real fear of anything. Therefore their behaviour deteriorated as there was no real consequence for it and they couldnt always quite grasp the whole 'be respectful for the sake of it' concept.

As a teacher I have always tried to model respect. There have been times when I may have inadvertantly treated a child unfairly (eg. told them off without knowing the full story), but I have always tried to ensure I apologise as this is what I would expect the children to do in a similar situation. I think this has got to be the first port of call when teaching children respect, with a fear of consequences thrown in when things dont go quite to plan.........!

MilaMae @ 'thats not very nice love' after what her children have done!

Just a little bit? Well done you. I think if more kids were more scared of their parents than the police then maybe the police would be able to concentrate on other things.

YANBU I completely agree with you. Me and my sister were always scared of my dad growing up, and a little bit scared of my mum.

My kids are scared of me a little, I know because if shout stop they do instantly. They're not scared of DH though he never tells them off hard enough IMO and they don't listen to him when he does. Which leaves all the disciplining down to me which is a PITA. I know DSD was always a little scared of me when growing up too.

I think a little fear of your parents is a good thing. I still have a great relationship with both my parents now as an adult, I'm very close to my mum.

I'm of the opinion that you give everybody respect until they do something that warrants them losing it. I think you friend is BVU saying adults have to "earn" respect from children and ideas like that are part of what's wrong with society today.

I'm a teacher. I don't expect to have to "earn" the respect of every new class I teach. How long would that be before anyone did any work then? Before they decided I was "worth" listening to? I expect them to afford me respect because I'm their teacher and because from the minute I meet them I treat them respectfully also.

There has to be a sense of heirarchy for order to prevail though. You're not their best mate as a teacher or as a parent and sometimes you have to discipline them and get them to do things they don't want to do. But if you're fair, consistent and refrain from being nasty, personal and rude, (in other words, when you respect them as human beings) then you deserve respect from them.

My whole point is that true respect for others comes from respecting them BECAUSE THEY ARE PEOPLE

I have an inherent respect for all of the peoples of the world, but I do not subscribe to the idea that I should respect those who have no respect for others simply because THEY ARE PEOPLE.

The whole of human rights legislation is based on this idea Current human rights legislation is deeply flawed.

But why should good behaviour be based on fear of consequences? That's not true respect - that's encouraging selfishness. And it's unsustainable

Lack of fear of consequences and selfishness has sustained tyrants, despots, and dictators, for many thousands of years and it is highly unlikely that this lamentable state of affairs will change in the foreseable future.

I suspect that you've fallen victim to woolly minded thinking Slanted and, now that you have found yourself in the maze of semantics, have lost sight of the fact that 'fear' can be a positive force for good and that being afraid of consequences has saved countless lives.

gilbonzo your post says everything I would like to say if I were more eloquent!! :)

OK, izzy.

You might discover, if you cared to look, that despots and tyrants are "created" by all sorts of circumstances. If you are so sure it's all down to lack of fear, then back it up - give us the evidence.

You agreed with me, really - but couldn't cope with that idea because you assumed I am a woolly-minded liberal. I am not. Your assumptions undermined you instantly.

You are spouting crap - all sorts of things have saved countless lives.

But please, correct my woolly thinking - give me a clear cut account of how lack of fear has created dictators, with clear cut, deductive arguments, and an explanation of how fear will stop this. I am waiting for your unwoolly thinking.