To be quite pleased that my dc are a little bit scared of me.

[psiloveyou]

DS (11) was looking at a picture in the paper this morning. It was of a mum taking her young son into court to face charges after rioting.
Ds said "if I ever did anything like that mum, I would be much more scared of what you would do. You're much scarier than any policeman or court". I was actually quite pleased that he felt like that.

When I told a friend though she was horrified. She said she would be devastated if her dc were scared of her in any way. She said I was living in the dark ages if I feel like that and adults should earn the respect of children without scaring them.

Now don't get me wrong, DS and I have a brilliant relationship. I never hit (and rarely have to shout at) the dc. I do think though that a little fear is healthy and I would like my dc to feel that way about any authority figure such as teachers the police ect.

So am I living in the dark ages.

Hang on, let's define "scared." Don't think anyone here is advocating striding around with a large stick, hollering commands and dishing out unpleasant punishments to children quaking in their boots.
I guess I'm thinking "healthy respect" and a child who knows better than to push their luck with bad behaviour or rudeness because there WILL be a consequence carried out, not just threatened. As in, "if you do that again, there will be no more screen time today," said firmly and calmly. And then carried out.

But when you say that children should respect adults simply because of the adult/child relationship, what does that mean?

Can you fill out what it is that you think entitles adults to respect simply because they are adults? (Especially since you acknowledge that not all adults are so entitled.)

Hurting someone has consequences, yes. But the hurt that you do is also an intention. And I am saying that I think it's important that children grow up to not want to intend to hurt people, regardless of any consequences to themselves.

I wouldn't be happy if my son chose to kill someone EVEN IF there would never be any consequences whatsoever to himself.

Let me turn your question on its head Slanted since you seem to be the most vocal that adults should earn kids respect.

Since i already provide everything I can for my kids. I clothe them, house them, cook, clean and love them. What else should I be doing to "earn" their respect?

niceguy, I have said nothing about earning respect.

I didn't want my dcs to be fearful of me but I had no problem with them being fearful of my response to a situation. I also know that what upset my sons most was the knowledge that they might have disappointed me.

I actually feel that respect is the quality you want to instil in children - respect for their parents, siblings, friends, teachers, and also themselves.

Psiloveyou - me too, I would never smoke in front of her because she hates it and I think it would be disrespectful because I know she doesn't like it

Slanted- I'll give you a very simplistic example... DD goes to her friend's house. Her friend has a toy for her birthday that DD desparatly wants but knows she cannot have because it is too expensive.
She doesn't steal or break it because if she does, her actions would have unhappy consequences...
a) if she doesn't respect other's property, she will have to do without in order to 'pay' for a replacement.
b) she knows it will hurt her friend and she will lose this friendship
c) she would be grounded and I would go mad.

Read into this Metaphor what you will.

joric, and others - seriously, what is the problem with not wanting to hurt people SIMPLY BECAUSE IT WILL HURT THEM?

Really? Are you all really not hurting people because you are scared of the consequences for yourself? This is insane.

And an absolutely massive lack of respect for others.

This is definitely something that's changed in society recently. It used to be a given that children were supposed to respect adults simply because of being older (not that they always did, but it was understood that they should!). For example it used to be considered polite and good behaviour for children to give up their seats for adults on public transport. Now it's the other way round - parents will get on the bus or train, and put their child in the only free seat, while standing themselves. Or if there's no free seat, an adult will get up and offer their seat for the child. I was the first time I saw this but it seems to be the norm now.

Certainly everything wasn't perfect in those days, but I wonder if we've gone a bit too far in making the children the centre of everything. It's not necessarily good for them.

As for why exactly children should respect adults - well, I don't believe in absolute moral values, but my reason as usual would be because society functions better that way. I don't think it makes any sense for the child-adult relationship to be an entirely equal and symmetric one, because children and adults are not the same.

Slanted You do not have to use fear tactics or scare children in order to raise them with a knowledge of what is, and what is not, acceptable behaviour in polite society.

In addtion, teaching childen to have respect for their parents, siblings, other relatives, friends, and for society as a whole, is markedly different to browbeating them into slavishly following unreasonable or unjust dictats or having blind or blinkered respect for 'authority' per se.

Mortality dictates that parents will not always be around to lead their dc by example or apply a much needed brake to any undesirable/dangerous behaviour their offspring exhibit. Therefore, IMO, the most valuable legacy parents can leave their dcs is to teach them the meaning of self-respect, equip them with a strong moral code, and trust that they will place a high value on their personal integrity.

When parents forsaake their naturally ordained role in the hope of being perceived as 'best friend' to their dc, or are overly permissive and/or indulgent for whatever reason, they may find that they have raised selfish and self-centred individuals who have scant respect or consideration for others.

i would not want ds to fear me in anyway

not wanting to disappoint me and be disappointed in himself yes but not fear, no not at all

i also do not need to feel that what i say goes all the time, i do not need that control over my child. he will play up at times, at times i choose my own battles at times he will do what he is told not to do i expect this from him to be a free thinker (yes yes pretentious) but i treat him always with respect he does not need to fear me and i beleive he will treat me and others that way too (he is not yet 4).

izzywhizzy - yes, I agree. I am the one who's been saying that we don't need to scare children and that it's not good to get them to behave out of fear.

slanted - I agree.

I don't steal. I don't steal because I DON'T STEAL. Because it is wrong. Not because I will be punished.

Look at the riots Look at what happens when people who don't have that ethic stop being afraid of the police because they know there are too many of them and too few police. We won't get punished therefore it's OK to steal.

You have to instill a sense of right and wrong regardless of imposed consequences.

And no, parents shouldn't have automatic respect from their children. Parents choose to bring their children into the world - that gives them massive obligations but no expectations. You hope that your children love and respect you but they won't always do so if you act like an entitled arse.

Omirian - thanks! Was wondering where I was, for a moment.

So what's your grand plan then Slanted. you seem pretty sure what is wrong. What's your view of "right"?

niceguy - I am not trying to start an argument, or proclaim a grand plan. I am simply saying I think it's wrong to scare children into obedience.

Sorry if you find that difficult to deal with.

Totally AGREE with you psilove you. My DS is going on 14 and yes, hope he's a bit scared of me, too right! always told him there's a pot in the kitchen with his name on it!!!! lol. And, like you I have a fab relationship with him and have never laid a finger on him (as believe in the non smacking rule). My "very" quiet angry voice has always been enough so far. But he knows if he ever dared to strike out at me I would use said pot!

I'm sooo disheartened by the lack of respect kids of today have for authority. They need a bit of healthy fear instilled!

Fear alone is wrong. That much we all agree on. Noone is advocated JUST that.

^Slanted- I think we should all, myself included, be afraid of what will happen if we choose to do the wrong thing over what is right.
Yes, when this fear (of consequences) has gone or is not there in the first place - all hell breaks loose^ - spot on Joric you've only to look at recent events to see how far the truth of that goes

& slanted you take my quote from the OP literally, which it obviously isn't a reference to so YES I DO remember the proverbial dark ages when kids were taught to respect adults & authority & you'd get a clip round the earhole from Teachers, Police or Neighbours if you deliberately misbehaved & that fear of consequences that still existed back then really DID make a difference to behaviour, these days the tiny rural village I grew up in is a no go area, due to feral kids with neither respect nor fear of consequence - I was shocked to be warned of visiting, because I WOULD be mugged - not might be, guaranteed - the high st is boarded up - not because people don't buy businesses there, but because when they do, they are driven out by thugs within weeks - so YES it IS worse

so I stand by my post there is NO harm in a little bit of fear in order to in still respect & NO adults should not have to earn a Childs respect, its exactly that kind of namby pamby left wing bollocks that has our society in the state its in

Slanted- you seem to think that by a consequence, I mean a slap ( or similar) do you not understand that we are governed by rules and regulations ? We learn through our actions- I'm going to give an even more simplistic example now...
A baby throws his bowl of stewed apple across the room. The mother takes it off him, says no and feeds him herself After repeating this lots of times, the baby learns that they can't do this because if they do, their bowl will be taken away ( cue, the consequence)

......The baby learns that
mummy will be annoyed ~ he doesn't want to annoy mummy and he 'is wary ( or fears) her telling him off.

"you seem to think that by a consequence, I mean a slap ( or similar)"

No I don't. I am not particularly interested in the specific consequences. My whole point is that true respect for others comes from respecting them BECAUSE THEY ARE PEOPLE, and not because of what might happen to you, personally, if you don't.

The whole of human rights legislation is based on this idea.

And I'm somewhat shocked that you all find it so repellent.

Throwing apples as a baby is irrelevant.

Ok then, If my son punches me, shall I take his hand off????