To think those who try to justify the Norwegian bomber are not even as bad as a racist just sick.

[maypole1]

Turned on the radio today, and can't believe how people are trying to put this on the Muslims and justify the crazy bomber.

And even suggesting we should listen to what he has to say, I just wonder why these same people were calling for us to listen to Osama after 9/11

Because by the same logic he might have had a message (god help us)

And I wonder if any of these net mums just have the balls to say I am a racist and what, because I have more respect for that person than someone who uses immigration as a fig leaf for their racism.

Just before we start if any one uses the term English please be clear whom you are talking about

Any one who is born here

Or any one who is white

Also the term immigrant means someone who is in the country legally and can't claim any benefits and who has to work

Asylum seeker is different

Just want to be clear

Eh? A strappy vest top is half undressed?

Where do you live. Siberia? What do you wear when it's hot?

Abra1d and lesley33 you are both telling me that China is atheist so you misunderstood. I am not saying China is Muslim and I'm not even saying that capital punishment is evil. I approve of capital punishment (though execution for entertainment like the stadium thing sounded nasty and not in keeping with the claim that all Muslims are sweet and gentle)

I was replying to MrBloomsNursery who said with great authority that America is more evil because it executes more people than every other country.

Clearly not true, but someone might read it on here and think it was right.

It's sad that any debate on religion will inevitably get shouted down with cries of racism.

I am intolerant of any religion, I despise them all equally.

Every one of them has rules that make no sense to an intelligent person, but Islam seems to have more that I don't like (or maybe they are just more publicised).
I know people say it is a peaceful religion, but some aspects are barbaric. Yes, I know stoning, FGM and the practise of cutting off limbs to punish thieves are cultural too, but they are the culture in Islamic countries.

I don't agree with circumcision (male or female) and any book that instructs people to mutilate their children should be burned.

I just think that people who choose to live their life by a book written centuries ago are sad. We have one life, this one. Forget about the 72 virgins and all the other shite, such as purgatory, or being re-incarnated as a cricket.

Live your life as a decent person, and treat everyone in the way you would like to be treated.

I watched a documentary on Jewish life recently, and the woman wouldn't even switch on the light on the sabbath, or tear fucking kitchen roll! FFS!!!!

beebaby I have studied religion - probably more than the average person on the street since most people seem content to read the inspirational verses drawn by their priest from their holy book and don't know what the rest of it says.

The basis of religion is faith and how that takes precedence over evidence or rational thought. True faith is portrayed in the bible for example as the willingness to cut your own son's throat because your faith tells you god wants you to. This is held up as an example of true faith and is commended.

Anyone carrying a bible should put it in the bin and wash their hands.

So my situation and how my children got to a Catholic School:

Finances booming=children at private school
Financial crash= Children had to go state, Catholic school was the ONLY school that had places for them. Either go there or nowhere. Still on other waiting lists, next school one place two terms on. I have four children, one who was a baby, one at a pre school and two at school. I could not have gotten both to school on time had they been at different schools and did not feel it was right to take them out after that. Changing schools was hard enough.

And anti women crap in Catholicism does only seems to rear it's ugly head when it gets to hierarchy within the church. Homophobic and anti abortion sentiment isn't discussed in primary school. By secondary they'll be secular again.

Oh and as we were broke, in debt measures nearly losing our home moving was not necessary, Catholic school was the least of my worries. Although I did read the syllabus before I could agree.

Onogar - sorry I wasn't replying to your point. It is good that you pointed out that it is an urban myth that America executes more people than other countries.

One aspect of Islam that does worry me is how anti gay it is.

So basically, the tone of this thread is muslims are bad, islam should not grow, all muslim women are opressed.
Then tell me, why is Islam one of the fastest growing religions in the world?
Life as a muslim is not what you read in the papers and hear in the news.
Why is it impossible to accept non-fundamentalist muslims as a part of your society? The fundamentalists do not portray the real Islam.
I have a career, I am free to do what I want, my husband does not tell me what to do, I run my home and my life as I see fit with his help and input like every normal relationship. I chose this religion for myself. Most of my friends are non-muslims or converts like myself, I feel able to 'mix' with my neighbours, in the shops etc. Of course, I changed my lifestyle when I converted but to a better life than what I had before.
But what you must understand is that as a muslim you do not live your life according to the inspirational verses and just expect to be forgiven at the end. So, onagar, if you still think this is the case then you have not studied Islam well enough.
I am proud to be who I am and what I believe in. But right now, what all of us should do is show our support and respect to the victims and the families.

FBB - I haven't been following this news item too closely so forgive me if I've got my facts wrong - but isn't his 'issue' with the political left and not Islam? isn't he blaming politicians for ignoring their people and not allowing them to have freedom of speech or to voice any concerns? if you say anything about immigration you're racist, that kind of thing - He'll have more to say about the political left and their ideology than he will about Islam - that's if he doesn't die in suspicious circumstances -. like Dr David Kelly.

Corporal punishment was outlawed in state schools in England in 1987 and later in private schools. It was banned in schools in Ireland in 1982 and became criminal offence in 1996. Although dreadful things were perpetrated in the past, children are now protected by in school law.

Unlike the Scandanavian countries, children are not protected protected from corporal punishment in the home in Ireland or Britain.

in

protected

filthy - Yes the disscusion now has nothing to do with what the OP posted.

Flora - I have never said that Muslims or Islam is bad. I personally don't like the extremes of any religion, but where I live the majority of Muslims seem to be moderate.

But I think some of the more subtle arguments being stated are just being dismissed. My comment wasn't about whether Muslims "mix" in shops. My point was that at times I no longer feel part of my geographic community and I gave some examples of things that fequently happen that make me feel this way.

I know some people here don't understand why you would want to feel part of your geographic community - but I have in the past and I miss that now.

lesley33 - firstly in a corner shop or supermarket as a customer waiting to be served I expect the cashier to stop chatting to friends / co-workers so I can buy my goods because that is good customer service - it's how I was trained when I did shop work as a teenager. While I am being served it's normal to have a quick, 'how are you etc.' conversation - polite & takes a couple of minutes. I am capable of reading body language & would never break into a serious conversation. I surely don't need to spell all that out?
Re: clothes; well I'm not really toned up so I prefer to wear a top with short sleeves. Also I have heard a lot of bitching from (mainly english) men & women about women (sorry but it's usally women who get bitched about) wearing shorts / short skirts / strappy tops when they have less than perfect figures, flab & cellulite bad skin, etc. Sad but true. If I was confident then I wouldn't care but I'm not so I prefer to not reveal too much skin.
FFP - Let's hope this guy does get killed off like the poor teenagers he hunted down. I don't care what his issues or politics are. How anyone could kill all those people in such a cold-blooded way is beyond comprehension.

Kallista: He sees this as his 'war' - 1000's of innocent people are killed in wars - Tony Blairs war was legitimate because it was ok'd by the state.

My local shops are not chains, they are all independent shops. Staff do not practise the type of customer service you refer to. It is perfectly usual for the cashier to chat away to 1 or 2 women who are near the till choosing goods, packing them away after being served, and very often piling goods on the counter as they go and get more stuff.

TBH I don't have any problem with these shops not being run in a way that chain stores would see as good customer service. But it does mean staff barely acknowledge me - apart from 1 woman who was very friendly but no longer works in 1 shop. Most of the time staff say nothing to me and if I say a cheery hello the most I get is a quick hi back as they turn back to their conversation.

But also in local shops it is not just staff. If I am in a queue it used to be quite normal to join in a general conversation e.g. 2 women moaning about something like the local park - I turn towards them and join in.

I really get the impression that most people on this thread have never lived in an area where the majority of people speak another language. I also get the impression that many people have never experienced what feeling part of a local community is like.

When my children were babies/toddlers going to the local shop was often the highlight of my day. Staff and other customers would chat away to me. Okay it was often inane chat, but I felt so lonely at times for adult company that I was grateful to have anyone to talk to.

I'm not saying by the way that I see this feeling of not belonging to the geographic community as a big deal that colours my life. But I do understand why people move out of areas such as I live in and go to live in areas where they feel more part of the community.

Just as I understand why a neighbour moved her child from the local primary school to a school further away. She was the only white child in her year and most of the talk in the playground was in Urdu and Mirpuri. She is a shy child who wasn't thriving in that kind of environment.

But it doesn't make them or me or a racist or anti Muslim. And it also doesn't mean that I think local people should only talk in English, should mix more, or anything else other posters have suggested. I don't think we should do anything about any of this. But it also doesn't mean that we should dismiss people when they share these feelings.

FFP - War is between soldiers of 2 opposing sides who have declared war. Since the invention of bomber planes & missiles after ww1 it's inevitable there will be civillian casualties but if possible they must be avoided. Since ww2 the UK have been very careful to try & minimise civillian casualties.
War is NOT leaving a car bomb in the middle of a busy city which is not at war. It is NOT taking out a sniper rifle & stalking dozens of young people who are camping.

When unarmed people are deliberately massacred in this way during war it is called a war crime & prosecuted as such. Eg. the shooting of thousands of unarmed men in Srebrenica; the Katyn massacre, the shootings of millions of Jewish civillians by the SS. These events are infamous because they were evil & criminal - these people could not fight back & were murdered in cold blood for racial & political reasons.
Anders Breivik's crimes are not even war crimes - because there is no war in Norway. He just killed those children in cold blood which is murder.

Who said thousands (and then in brackets if not millions ) of people across Europe will justify this guy's murders)? What is this statement based on?

Earlier on the thread the OP said it was based on a radio phone in show.

Mr Bloom

I've reported your post containing this paragraph:

"Now I would like to talk to you about these "mails" you've been receiving from Muslim men. Tell me, do you think perverts are restricted to being Muslim? I can only imagine what kind of site you went on and left your email to encourage perverts to contact you and make comments like that. EVERY RACE AND CULTURE AND RELIGION HAS PERVS WITHIN IT....WHEN YOU GO HUNTING FOR THAT KIND OF ATTENTION, THEN IT IS NATURAL YOU WILL RECEIVE IT."

Because you seem to be suggesting that women who are hassled by pervs are in some way encouraging it. Thought I'd let you know in case the post is deleted and you thought it was PosieParker. BTW, that is a pretty despicable attitude - women who are hassled by pervs went 'hunting for it'.

lesley 33 - I don't think you are a racist. It's sad you feel or are being made to feel excluded - the people you describe are just being ignorant IMO. If the staff in any shop / cafe I go in - run by english people or anyone else - are unfriendly then I don't go there again.
It's a shame you don't have more choices over where you shop; in my area there are lots of shops, cafes etc & people of a variety of cultures including english so I know I'm lucky. All I can suggest is being more assertive but you shouldn't have to be. Perhaps there is a local group you can join or voluntary work where you can get to know local people.

Rudeness, ignorance & unfriendliness is just as likely from people of any culture. Eg most of my neighbours are english; some are arabic, some pakistani, some african. Most of my neighbours at least say 'hello' & are pleasant. But the people at the back of my house are aggressive and intimidating. I actually found them in my garden once! They think they own the neighbourhood. They are english; but those 'qualities' can be found anywhere in the world.

You know what I've thought about my feelings about religion for some time, many years, I've even got a theology degree in a bid to further understand but I'm still left thinking it's all a bit needy and silly.

I think the trouble with Islam is that it's a very visible club, like Hell's Angels and I think it's about separating oneself for what? A belief in a new version of christianity, a lesser version that is less kind to the individual. Islam seems to ask more of it's followers than most religions, why would God create woman and then ask her to cover up ffs? Why would the prophet be a man when being a woman would have really been a more treacherous and learning path? Why would an all knowing God make homosexuals a source of persecution?

kallista - there is 1 small grocery/newsagents that is a bit further away from me and the staff are Asian and white. It is noticeable that in a local population with a minority of white people, most of their customers seem to be white. I can understand why, but I feel if I use it I am encouraging segregation in some way - sorry can't explain it very well.

I don't think most times it is intentional rudeness or unfriendliness, it is more as if I was invisible in a way.

In addition I do wonder why people convert to be good? Why couldn't they live a virtuous life without God? Surely a good person is good without the rule book or fear of God? What does the loving God give the follower on earth?

Thanks KateBee......

Well, all this talk of shops...I went in to ZARA before Christmas to pick up a coat I had ordered online, and NO ONE in the store could speak English properly. They were all Spanish or French. I didn't get pissed off and make a fuss that they aren't talking English. I just smiled at them happily and took my coat and didn't even give it another thought. Because, they are offering me a service, that I don't care HOW I get. Same with all of you complaining about the Pakistani people speaking in Urdu in their shops.

MrBlooms. The point of mentioning te shop was that both staff and customers spoke their own mother tongue and not English....not that there were a few foreigners. I don't want to feel like an unwelcome visitor in my own country.