To think those who try to justify the Norwegian bomber are not even as bad as a racist just sick.

[maypole1]

Turned on the radio today, and can't believe how people are trying to put this on the Muslims and justify the crazy bomber.

And even suggesting we should listen to what he has to say, I just wonder why these same people were calling for us to listen to Osama after 9/11

Because by the same logic he might have had a message (god help us)

And I wonder if any of these net mums just have the balls to say I am a racist and what, because I have more respect for that person than someone who uses immigration as a fig leaf for their racism.

Just before we start if any one uses the term English please be clear whom you are talking about

Any one who is born here

Or any one who is white

Also the term immigrant means someone who is in the country legally and can't claim any benefits and who has to work

Asylum seeker is different

Just want to be clear

I don't blame you for being upset Flora, there are some ridiculous and unpleasant views being expressed here.
I'm thinking about this....native Muslim groups live in the Middle East, North Africa, the European Mediterranean, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, the Pacific, China, etc etc?. I?m really battling to see how there?s going to be a homogenous culture here, how anyone can even begin to define a culture that is potentially incompatible with whatever British or English culture is deemed to be.
Or possibly what some of the anti-Muslim posters mean is that they don?t people from whichever country it is that live in the area they live in. In which case that?s just common or garden racism/xenophobia.

Why has the actions of a norwegian, extreme right terrorist led to another witch hunt on muslims

There is no witch hunt. Out of 50+million people a couple of people on a phone-in said ignorant things. So once again the religious people are crying "woe is me" so loudly they have practically forgotten the real victims.

No-one is blaming christianism for the actions of the killer even though he identifies himself as a christian.

I am. Christianity like Islam teaches that you must not think for yourself, but instead trust the voices in your head (and the employees of the church) to tell you what to do, and that god/allah willl forgive all.

You drum sick nonsense like that into people and some of them are going to end up committing atrocities.

Well whoever said that that people are stoned to death in muslim countries - Can I just say that, that is another form of capital punishment. Do you know which country in the world has the highest rate of capital punishment? NO, NOT a MUSLIM country - actually it's AMERICA. They kill more people for crimes than any other country in the world. Then, there was that woman who is on DEATH ROW for having a miscarriage and being blamed for killing her child. Shit happens in ALL countries - who would have thought the death of Baby Peter could have happened in OUR country?

Abuse, murders, rape, punishment, unlawful killings, kidnap - This happens in EVERY country; the media just hype up the bad things that happen in Muslim countries because just like the days of the cold war, this time Muslims are the enemy, and the extremist muslims are the ones who sell newspapers and get high ratings on the TV.

In the US capital punishment is reserved for the taking of another life. Just to pick an example from many A woman in Somalia was stoned to death after an Islamic Sharia law court found her guilty of adultery.

Apparently she was buried up to her neck at a Somalian football stadium, then stoned to death in front of more than 1,000 people. That must have been fun. I wonder if there was popcorn or just chants about the goodness of Allah?

Don't get me wrong. Somalians can have any laws they like. They don't need our approval.

But if they choose to do things like this I don't want anything to do with them.

As for the US being the worst that seems to be pure propaganda.

                            <strong>Number executed in 2010</strong>

People's Republic of China. No official figures but may be up to 5000.
Iran 252+
North Korea 60+
Yemen 53+
United States 46
Saudi Arabia 27+

But that slightly dilutes your point that religion is the source of much of the evil. China is atheist but executes far more people than anyone else.

I find capital punishment repugnant, for whatever crime, however.

Yes the stonings of women for adultery are horrific but I?d imagine the majority of the Muslim as well as non-Muslim world shudder in horror in reaction. Conflating the whole of the Islamic world with some barbaric stone-age practice is a huge leap. Like trying to compare a small Anglican parish the Westboro Baptists or something.
Btw I?m not much a fan of religion. But I?m less of a fan of bigotry.

I wish people would check their facts in an argument. China is officially aethist. In practice Christianity is the fastest growing religion in China. When I was there crash barriers were being erected near a church for Christmas day. On Christmas day it has become the in thing for newly married couples to go to church and be given a piece of Xmas cake - it is supposed to bless their marriage.

And although I don't know a great deal about it, I suspect China executes many people because it is a totalitarian state, not because it is officially an aethist country.

All those complaining on here that Muslims don't mix with them - you sound like deeply unpleasant people who think that Muslims have to prove their Britishness/humanity to them. But if we pass the 'British Enough' test, we still lose because we're terrible people for choosing to be Muslim.

So Muslims can't win and all you really want is for Muslims not to exist anymore

As for the usual brain dead cracks about "they love our British benefits". Unless you are a permanent resisdent, you have 'No recourse to public funds' stamped across your visa. Asylum seekers get given food vouchers, because they are not permitted to work. Hardly generous.

A friend lived in Kuwait, their biggest TV audience? Execution, people jeering and baying for blood with calls to Allah.

And I personally would like to see an end to all religion....it would make my heart sing. Control of humans has always been around, God is simply one version.

Of course people shouldn't have to prove their humanity. And I agree many people don't understand how the benefit sytem does or does not apply to migrants and asylum seekers.

Cohesive commmunities tend to be made up of people who are similar with the same values and way of life - roughly speaking. Creating a sense of community when it is a very diverse local population is much harder to achieve. I think when people talk about Muslims not mixing, it is often the sense of cohesiveness they miss.

I don't think its as simple as thinking Muslims don't mix (whether individuals do or not). The reality is that few people seem to be bothered when there is a small distinct population that doesn't mix - as long as it stays small.

So where I live has a very large Asian population and a small Chinese population. Local research has shown that the local Chinese community mix less than any other ethnic group. But nobody seems bothered about this and I think it is because it is a small community.

However the local mainly Muslim Pakistani and Mirpuri population is very large. It consists of people - mainly younger - who were born in Britain as well as migrants from mainly rural areas. Here white people born here do express concern with Muslims "not mixing". I think what people are often really concerned about is the lack of cohesiveness and that they may feel not part of the community any more.

So rather than talking to the British and often white staff whose family they may know at the fruit and veg shop, the shop is now owned by a local Pakistani businessman who employs Asian staff. Much of the chatter and gossip is now in Urdu or Mirpuri and the shop staff barely acknowledge you as a white customer.

Another staff member looks at you disapprovingly as you are wearing a strappy vest top exposing your shoulders. As you try and explain what you want to the staff member 2 older Pakistani men come in and immediately interrupt you. The staff member walks away from you and ignores you to deal with these two older men.

Basically what I am trying to say is I think there are sometimes genuine reasons that people express concerns about "Muslims not mixing". Yes this is often expressed in racist language which is not helpful, but it doesn't mean that there aren't some genuine concerns there.

China is officially aethist. In practice Christianity is the fastest growing religion in China. When I was there crash barriers were being erected near a church for Christmas day.

Yes, I know that. My church collects and prays for Christians in China. But as you say, the State is atheist and it is the state the executes people.

Thank God I'm not religious.

Sorry, couldn't resist. I do think that religion is responsible for most of the worlds war and suffering.

So I am intolerant of any religion. How anyone can live their life based on books written centuries ago, dictating what they eat, what they wear, the mutilation of children, is totally beyond me.

Abra - But what I was trying to say is that the state doesn't imo execute people because it is aethist. It executes, tortures people, etc because it is a totalitarian state.

'A friend says....'

'Some people in a shop were rude to me....'

= Muslims are BAD.

lesley33, I'm making the point that the propensity of states to execute isn't linked to official state adherence or otherwise to any kind of religion. China executes. So does Iran. So does the US. Portugal is a religious country that doesn't execute.

No I am not saying Muslims are bad. Have you read all of my post? I talked about people not feeling like they belonged to their local community any more and gave practical examples of this that happen all the time,

Most people in the shops where I live do speak in Urdu and Mirpuri when chatting away so it is impossible to join in and be friendly. Many devout Muslims do disapprove of bare shoulders in women. And some older Pakistani men do think they should be served before a woman.

So they aren't speaking English, so what? If you went into a shop in Wales and they were speaking Welsh would you still feel affronted?

Or is that different because Welsh people truly belong to the Uk, but brown people are guests and should be on their best behaviour?

FWIW, I live in a v Asian area and have never had anyone push in front of me.

Lesley, I'm willing to tackle peoples' posts and points, but it ends up the same way;

"Muslims should embrace our culture". (A careless point thrown in without much thought as a Muslim can be Scottish as much as Iranian).

I ask "Please define British British culture that you are so keen for everyone else to embrace".

And nothing. Apart from "talking in shops". Which is interesting, I live in Wales and I don't speak Welsh, I go to a rural farm shop where they all speak Welsh...this doesn't bother me, and why should it?

Whomever raised the point about women "being free" in the UK, and the fact I argued with that. I am referring to of course, several feminist issues.

1. Sentence for rapists
2. Lower pay than men
3. Being bombarded with adverts to look and dress have hair in a certain manner
4. Maternity/going back to work errors for women

Believe it or not many many predom Islamic countries allow women to study, teach, drive, work, marry, etc. Not every single Islamic country is how the Daily Mail perceive Afghanistan to be.

Lady...Again you fail to name anywhere in the world that is more free, which is exactly the point.

Daily Mail is a lazy MN short hand, often meaningless as the MN demographic is unlikely readers of The Daily Mail.

Welsh speaking Welsh in Wales is really the same as a shop full of people speaking Urdu making the non Urdu speaking person feel unwelcome, in England where English is the spoken language. Clutching at straws.

I know it's more palatable to label an anti Muslim feeling as racist, saying 'brown' but Muslim represents a belief system and way of life, to ignore that is disingenuous. If the recent influx of Eastern Europeans were Muslim I dare say the feeling against them would be even worse than it is.

are unlikely

I am certainly viewed with suspicion in Easton where I live.

near where I live.....

ThePosieParker -you are talking absolute tommyrot if you feel that welsh people in Wales shouldn't be speaking Welsh. I am English, living in Wales. I regularly encounter exactly the scenario you outline and it is neither a problem, nor something that I find threatening / makes me feel unwelcome. It's down to my sense of self and confidence in my fellow man. Where do you get off on saying what people should or shouldn't do?

I don't think you're being racist, incidentally - I just think you are muddled and extremely unsophisticated in how you have ordered your thoughts and beliefs. If life isn't exactly how you find it, it's a problem? Well, then it's your problem. Not one that I share, thank goodness. It must be one long drag, getting through the day, where you live.

onagar, for you to suggest I have in some way 'forgotten' the real victims is ludicrous. I was merely pointing out the unfairness of the situation towards a minority group when no evidence was found. The Norwegian Justice Minister even acknowledged this earlier in the news.
As to your comments on Islams teachings, that just shows the ignorance I mentioned before. These attitudes create the atmosphere we now live in.
I just wish people would find out more before making up their minds about things.