AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

Yadnbu

There is no way you should be expected to help financially. Offer as much emotional and practical support as possible and if he chooses to ignore you, then that's his problem.

Are we talking similar amounts again? Because if so this is not about family it is about a business decision. You would be stark raving mead to get involved with that kind of money again! You need to say to them exactly what you have said here, that you love him and that you want him to suceed in turning his life around but that you simply cannot contibute financially again. That he already oes you well over £150,000 pounds and that until that debt is paid off you won't be able to help. As for option 2 the only way you should consider it is if you have a controllong interest i.e. a 51% share in the ownership drawn up legally. And that's only if you fancy having a business of your own to run anyway.

You are going to have to be very, very strong about this, and accept that it is highly likely to cause a massive rift. But you would be an idiot to consider any part of it frankly.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

I am so sorry that he has got himself into this mess, but you cannot let him drag you down with him.

He hasn't learned. He screwed you over and now he's back to do it again.

His life is shit right now, yes, that's true. And that's really unfortunate.

But it is his own fault. He happily saddled you with massive debt while he carried on pissing money up the wall. And now people are back to bleed you dry again with no care at all for all you did last time and how that ended.

If they try to guilt you, you must remind them that you have already remortgaged your house for him, and are left paying off a massive debt and it is totally unfair of them to ask you to do this again.

He already failed to pay back £150,000 - if you believe for a second that you will ever see a penny of any further loan, you are a fool.

If you want to give him the money, then do so. But do so knowing you will never see it again and you are showing him that he can always be financially feckless and he will be bailed out.

Nope. Not at all. If you want to offer practical assistance that costs you nothing, then fine, but anything else don't touch. I have a DB who is just the same, and because dad keeps bailing him out, never learns.

YANBU.

I would suggest you don't attend any such meeting of the family in case you get guilted into agreeing to support your brother financially. Make it clear that you will not offer financial support this time around.

Also, you refer to his mother - are you half-siblings? Is there a big age gap?

He can't be trusted to run a business. he needs to declare bankrupt (IVA no good if he can't afford the payments - no way you should make them for him) and get a job. You cannot, and must not, borrow more money to help him, or sell your land.

If you really want to help him and could afford it then you could buy a property and rent it to him. Housing benefit would pay you directly.

Hard one.

Your brother needs to face up to what has been going on and sort the mess out hinself - otherwise any help etc you and your family offer will only enable his behaviour even more and the pattern will continue.

However it sounds as if he is having some mental health problems given what you jave said.

To be honest this sounds like the time to call the professionals in.....

The options that you have listed aren't the only ones. There are others. Maybe thinking about him declareing bankruptcy and sorting out the debt that way and starting with a clean slate would be better.

I know you love him - but you cannot keep risking your own family to support him.

If I were you I would check out other debt options (maybe through CAB) and go to this 'crisis meeting' with some other options as to how to sort this mess without it being heavily reliant on you for business or financial support, and obviously offer as much emotional support as you are able to.

But seriously, DO NOT FEEL GUILTED IN PROVIDING BUSINESS AND FINANCIAL SUPPORT.

IMO this won't help anybody - least of all your brother as it won't get to the real root cause of the problem and help him change his behaviour. It will only serve to reinforce his view that he can do what he likes as you will sort it out.

Yanbu.

Is his mother not your mother?

YANBU

No way should you be lending him more money. Don't let anyone guilt trip you.

I would be tempted not to go to the family meeting and just say "look I will support him emotionally as much as I am able but I cannot support him with any more money"

Fallenninja, I feel for you. Have been there done that with my brother, in very very similar circumstances.

All I can say is, don't give him the money. Tell the family you will write up debt plans etc etc you will be on the end of the phone anytime he wants to talk, but don't give him any money.

Here's the thing. Even if you can afford it, you are still perfectly within your rights to say NO to something you don't want to do. Not wanting to do it is reason enough. Good luck.

He won't pay you back. Again.

You just have to decide whether it's worth the money.

But then what about the next time?

Ninja, my dad committed suicide.

Please excuse the sensational start to my post to you but this concerned me...

"However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself..."

If he succeeds in taking his life, it is no-one's fault. Please, please do not engage in behaviour you are uncomfortable with (bailing him out!) under this particularly horrific duress.

You were extremely (stunningly!) kind to him the first time around and have incurred your own stresses and financial loss as a result. Please do not place yourself in further jeopardy.

Go to the 'Mind' website and have a look around. On it you will find some information specifically for family and friends of mentally ill people.

How much is this £150K going to cost you in total, when you consider interest etc? It's a colossal amount of money!

Think of your brother as Greece. He's come back for a second bailout but is reluctant to put the required austerity measures in place, therefore is very likely to default. Better to deal with it now than to pour more money in only for him to default a year or two down the line!

YANBU he doesn't need money he needs help from mental health professionals. Spending beyond your means is a symptom of a number of mental health problems and giving him more money without addressing the root cause of his issues is just a receipe for disaster.

Don't feel guilty, the worst thing you can all do is to keep enabling his destructive behaviour.

I actually don't think this is a hard decision to make at all

You don't lend/give him any money at all

He is a black hole of a money pit, no matter what other demons he is fighting at the moment, you cannot fix it by throwing more money at it

That would be the very worst thing you could do

Let him go bankrupt, he needs to learn. You have done him a huge favour in the past and are now paying for it. Has he given any thought to how the debt he put you in, could have destroyed your mental health? That debt could have driven you to the brink.

He is a silly, selfish immature man who needs to learn the hard way. He is obviously shit with money so he needs to stop trying to run a business and go and get a job in an office or something.

Stop being a mug

YANBU. You shouldn't even be considering further financial assistance until your DB or his mum have settled the original debt (£150k!). TBH I would even be wary of getting involved with giving him business/debt help, bearing in mind that you say your brother probably won't listen to you. He has to want to receive help (and not just a financial bail-out).

Echoing Bast (sorry for your loss Bast ) but DB needs independent help for his mental issues, not more financial support being poured into the black hole of his business. As someone else has pointed out, why are these the only 2 options?

Why is being declared bankrupt and getting a job not an option? Plenty of people rebuild themselves having hit rock-bottom but this can't be done if more and more money is poured in as a temporary sticking plaster. It just enables him to keep mismanaging his finances, his business, his (and xDW's) expectations etc.

Have you contacted any debt counselling (don't mean those shitty companies doing IVAs etc - am sure there must be something more geared towards dealing with mental issues precipitating or caused by bankruptcy/massive debt)? I think you (unfortunately) need to come up with some alternative options for DB to get himself properly sorted out both mentally and financially and offer these. Will have a dig around later this evening for you and see what there is available.

Attempts at suicide and threats of suicide, sadly, should not come into this and whatever happens you cannot bear the burden of his choices. I understand your family's fear but what happens if you suddenly feel overwhelmed and crushed by his your financial obligations and start threatening suicide? Whose emotional blackmail wins out?

YANBU

Your brother needs to face the reality that he is actually no good at running a business. Bailing him out now and effectively running the business around him will do him no favours. The danger is that your brother will drag you down again. Your own good name could be ruined if you associate yourself professionally with your brother's failed schemes.

Do not shoulder the burden of your brother's life. That is his burden to carry.

Your brother needs help for his mental health problems but that help should come from health professionals not finance professionals.

Help your brother as his sister not as an accountant or as a bottomless pit of money.

Why would going bankrupt be so terrible? I realise that it is not something I would choose to happen to me, but it would not be the end of the world.
Maybe bankruptcy and assistance from mental health professionals might be the way to go.

Is he your half brother and if so, how much of the pressure is coming from his family as opposed to yours?

I don't mean to be offensive, but you would be fucking insane to "lend" him more money. Lend in inverted commas because you know you would never see it again, right?

I would steer well clear of the family meeting. Tell him that you will offer emotional support but are not in the position to lend any more money. You have already done your bit by lending the £150 grand previously.......it's someone else's turn to take charge of the bail out. You absolutely cannot afford to put your own financial position at risk to help him out.......especially when you work as an accountant!

He should just take the bankrupcy. Or look into an IVA, but only if he can afford the payments himself. Payplan are an excellent debt management company to talk to.

So he still owes you 150,000GBP?

I´d say that until he pays that back, you´re not in any postion to help.

If the potential lender were a client I'd imagine that your professional advice would be to invest no further funds.

Bankruptcy is surely the better way forward and something I'd suggest you moot without attending the family meeting. You've done your best, there's a limit to how much financial and emotional input you can provide. There's no reason for you to feel under further obligation or to be put, deliberately or otherwise, under emotional blackmail.

Sell the land and pay your mortgage off.

He has been given loads of chances and is not learning from them.

If his mam wants to help him can she not remortgage her house. Why would anyone expect you to help him after what he has done to you.

I would say sorry but i am still paying the last loan off, i have done my bit to help him in the past but he hasnt paid me back.