AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

I cant add anything that hasn't already been said. I'm just gobsmacked that you will be spending a good portion of your life paying off HIS debt, and the cheeky bleeders have the nerve to ask for more ?

Does your DB and SIL have a family home at all ? If so this needs to be in the firing line not yours

Does his mother know that he never paid you the 150k he owes you? I'm guessing if there was a massive fall out then yes she does. What's she had/have to say about this? Have you pointed out to her that you don't believe you'd get your money back if you lent him more as you're still waiting for 150k from last time?

Just read your post that says 'no way will you help him out again - not to the same extent at least. STOP - NO HELP AT ALL HOWEVER SMALL>>> please?

Sorry, I missed the bit about the mum saying you were unreasonable last time.

Good grief, how is this woman even getting a sniff of your sympathy for her worry over her son? You parted with £150,000 of your money for him. That would buy you the right to be as unreasonable as you wanted for evermore if you chose to do so! Has everyone involved lost sight of the scale of your investment in your brother's wellbeing? £150,000k represents years and years and years of debt for most people. That is what you invested in him and he still owes you for it - just because he is family does not make his liability to you magically disappear.

Your DB's mother seems to have an enormous sense of entitlement to everyone else's time and money. Perhaps she should stop looking for people to blame/bail out her son and start thinking about how she can help her own child through this difficult time.

yanbu

YANBU You seem to be wavering here, seriously do not give lend your DB a PENNY. You have given him money before and not seen any return, why on earth would you give him any more?

Come up with a stock phrase such as " No that will not be possible" lather, rinse repeat to anyone who asks you to lend give money . Do not go into long convoluted reasons as to why you won't lend the money, it sounds to me like your family can talk rings round anyone.
If pushed you can say if asked why " We prefer not to" but seriously they are taking the mickey, no £5000, no £10,000 no £100,000 nothing don't give him a penny, if he is that desperate not to go bankrupt ( which seems like quite the best option given the circumstances) then he can ask his rich wife's family.

Or if you can't stop at "No that will not be possible" consider adding "due to the £150,000 he already owes me" and then maybe "you scrounging, ungrateful sods".

Ah but the point of keeping it short and sweet is because it brokers no further discussion, nothing for the relatives to hang their hats on whereas if she mentions money already spent - opportunity for them to talk about value of house etc etc and if she bad mouths them - opportunity for them to be hurt and offended and cause another family rift which the OP clearly doesn't want.

If you lend this money to your brother and don't get it back, then that's money that you are taking away from your son.

His mum thinks my response last time was unreasonable and she (as she told me at the weekend) thinks its unreasonable of me to keep bringing it up.

However, ive drafted an email to send, as I feel I need to stay out of talking to her lest she guilt me into agreeing ... opinions please ...

Dear X,

I have thought long and hard since our convo on Sunday, and I am sorry but I just don't feel I can come tonight. I will undoubtedly be put under substantial pressure to bail DB out again, pressure which in my situation is not fair on me. Whilst I love DB dearly, and I wish to help and support him in any way that I can, I am afraid I am not willing to jeopardise my own DCs future for this, and therefore I am not willing to raise £50k for DB. Having looked at who is in a position to raise this sort of finance, the only option i see open is to contact Y & Z.

Again with regards to running the business for DB, I do not feel that this will work in the long term. DB is reluctant to hand over control of the day to day financial decisions, and without that control I cannot take on responsibility for the business. Whilst I agree that it could be profitable if run in the right way, I do not believe that at this moment in time DB is in a position to do that. Again I reiterate, I would take control of the business, but it would then be under my control. We would obviously need futher discussions about whether it is being sold to me, or I am taking over management for a period of time. Maybe we could sell it to me for the original £150k loan i put up, a value far exceeding its worth.

I will, as I am aware that the companies house fines are mounting up, pay off his accountant in order to release the outstanding accounts, and I will also complete the accounts up to the point the business closes, which I imagine will be the end of July or August 2011.

Selling of his assets, should generate £15k. Sales of the client list & goodwill should possibly generate a further £10k. This will leave £25k outstanding to C. I am happy to liaise with them to try to come to some arrangement to clear the balance over a period of time. However any monthly payments would be DBs or yours responsibility to make. Their alternative to this is to push DB into bankruptcy, where they still will see no money. I am sure they will be reasonable.

Obviously the loss of DBs business & income will result in him having to sell his home, and if DBsW still wants to buy it, I would suggest he sells it to her. There will be no assets in any divorce anyway, as the only asset is the £5k equity in their home). The decision of whether she will remain in the marriage is not one for me to make, nor comment on, but in the event that she will not allow him to return home, and he cannot stay with you, he is welcome to stay here. I am happy to shift rooms around so that he can stay in the self-contained end and have some privacy. I also have been on the phone this afternoon to friends, and if I pull in a few favours, I can get him a job working with E, who will also provide him a cottage on the estate. I am sure DB would prefer this to an office or admin job, and it is only 30 minutes away so could be a really good opportunity for him.

If you could get DB to give me a ring, Id love to speak to him and just see how he is doing.
Cheers
ninja

gosh that was long.

I think that you are being too accomodating by offering to take him in tbh.

ninja

If you feel you must e-mail, then stick to this:

I have thought long and hard since our convo on Sunday, and I am sorry but I just don't feel I can come tonight. I will undoubtedly be put under substantial pressure to bail DB out yet again, pressure which in my situation is not fair on me or on my family. I am absolutely not willing to again jeopardise my own DCs future for this, and therefore I am not willing to raise anything for DB. Having looked at who is in a position to raise this sort of finance, the only option i see open is for them to contact Y & Z.

Any further communication about this issue will be ignored.

Over and out. End

Apart from over and out . end I agree with cuddly. Please don't offer any way of getting involved. they will pretend to agree and then go back on it. You had agreement to pay back loan before and it hasn't happened. Good try on not getting involved but I fear you can be stronger still!!!!

Personally I wouldn't bother with the second paragraph. You have a job. Why get into a business (even with a controlling interest) that is in such a mess? You are giving them something like an offer they can come back to you on. I would steer well clear.

I agree with Meravigliosa. The 2nd paragraph makes it sound like you're up for taking over the business, you're just haggling over Ts & Cs. I would also recommend removing "I'm sorry" and "I'm afraid" from the first para.

Don't house him, don't do him favours with your friends and drag them into DB's mess. Don't pay his accountant, because you'll pay that and then it will be 'just one more thing" after that, then another and another. JUST STOP.

Do you think you will hear the end of it if you did buy his business? Don't you think you'll end up having to give him an interest in the future because your family will always consider it his business and that you took it off him at a vulnerable time (that's how it will be played, NO MATTER HOW HONOURABLE YOUR INTENTIONS)?

I agree-the second paragraph sounds like you want to take over the business and would be more than happy to do so for an unspecified amount of time. I wouldn't mention any of that; do you actually WANT to buy it?

How much is the accountant's bill-why are you offering to pay this?

I think you are offering too much-your brother's mother will read this and think you're a soft touch and try to push you for much much more.

If they ask for money, tell her that you haven't got £50k and you'd have to remortgage/get a loan-and it would be just as easy for them to do it instead!

I will, as I am aware that the companies house fines are mounting up, pay off his accountant in order to release the outstanding accounts, and I will also complete the accounts up to the point the business closes, which I imagine will be the end of July or August 2011.

Don't do it! This is the thin end of the wedge. It is not your business and you will never see a penny of this money back. You will get no thanks in fact you will probably get more abuse if you help finish off the accounts.

Don't offer to buy off the business, help or take it in lieu of payment. He will deliberately destroy it so you get nothing from it.

Your B got the business into this position. If he has been running it for a number of years he knows full well the rules and penalties.

I know how hard it is to stand by but you have to let your brother fail. Everyone patting him on the shoulder and going 'there there it isn't your fault' are doing him no favours. It is his fault. No one else.

Don't even bail him out this little part.

There must be some evidence that you allowed him the £150k loan, get yourself as far up the list for getting your money back as you can.

Do you think you will hear the end of it if you did buy his business? Don't you think you'll end up having to give him an interest in the future because your family will always consider it his business and that you took it off him at a vulnerable time

I absolutely agree. If the business goes tits up-it will be your fault and if it succeeds, it will be because he was a good businessman who had a brilliant idea that you stole. You will then be cast as the wicked witch when you don't just hand the business back to him plus any profit you made.

How about "I will not be coming to the meeting, I have done more than enough & will do no more".

And I´d think seriously before getting friends to give him jobs.

He should be doing all of this for himself.

How about "Remember that family rift we had? I wish to resurrect it, as of now. Goodbye"

Seriously, I don't get you at all.

You leave yourself wide open to further manipulation.

For a professional person, you are coming across as tremendously naive.

You may be un-popular for a few weeks when they read that email, my DN dad is also running a company (into the ground) and refuses to get a job where he could easily earn £40k but refuses as he doesnt want to be a wage slave.....

That side of your family is obviously a little bit fecked up, esp the wife not wanting to tell her parents how on earth does she explain their seperated (sp?).

I am so sorry your goin through all this plus your own domestic situation, it will all clear up one day dont worry DH had a rubbish time for 2 years with court cases (ex girlf wouldnt release house money) and it all gets sorted in the end.

I think you've done plenty finding him help plus a possible job to go to!.