AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

And as for his wife? Tough shit-if she or her extremely wealthy family cared enough, then they can bail him out if they want to avoid the 'stigma' of bankruptcy. Or they can STFU.

Just keep reminding them of all the stress you are under, if they ignore you then bring up the 150K debt he has to you. YA so so NBU to refuse any finacial or professional support when it will most likely all be for nothing.

Also tell him to go bankrupt, screw his wife.

Don't offer money...this situation is the one that was avoided years ago by you lending him money, if you lend him money now it will happen all over again.

My dad bailed my brother out twice and now bitterly regrets it...it didn't improve his life, it just enabled my brother to spend more money he can't ever repay and my brother's wife still spend shte money and makes my brother's life a misery.

You have to say no, otherwise you will all be back in this situation in another 5 years or so. Except you will be a lot poorer and have nothing to show for it.

It is his wife, she and he can sort it out, if she didn't want the stigma of bankruptcy she should have managed her money bettter shouldn't she. She can ask her dad for money. Tell them all to go away and leech off someone else.

You don't owe him any money from the house thing. You bought the house fair and square! He could have chosen to do it if he had wanted to. Did you feel guilty about that? I wonder if that's why you gave him the 150 and are not going after him for the money. Was it put in writing? I know he is ill so now may not be the best time, but I don't think I could let that go!

happymm STFU ... he i like that wish I had the confidence to tell her that to her face!

As an accountant you know from the business side of this that throwing more money at the problem isnt going to make it better. If you go in and run the business will you be able to keep your brother's quite frankly sticky fingers out of the till? I dont think so. What will happen when you stop running the business for him? He will come running once more to his family to rescue him. The £150,00 is already forgotten, this £50,000 will be forgotten. You will find your brother's hand in your pocket once more.

Write off the £150,000. Tell your brother that is your gift to him and replaces any inheritance he thinks he has missed out on. That would be very generous and the only realistic outcome as you will never see a penny of it anyway. However writing it off mught help you emotionally to set it aside.

Dont get involved with the business. He will screw it up (you know he will). You will end up drummed out of which accountants club you belong to. You will end up disbarred as a director. You will end up with your assets being seized. While this is going on your brother will continue to bleat about how unfair life is. His mother will continue to wring her hands and sob into her hanky saying 'what can we do?'.

Given that you brother is in his 30s (I'm guessing from your last post) he now needs to grow up. This business that he is in should be allowed to fail. He needs to face the consequences and go bankrupt.

IMO your job as his sister is to be generous with your emotional support but nothing else.

GnomeDePlume I understand what you are saying and why but she doesn't actually owe him that money. He wasn't entitled to any of it. I can't help but think that is she does what you suggest it will further cement his sense of entitlement.

Your next conversation with your brother's leech of a mother (hmm, can see where he developed his sense of entitlement from) should run roughly thus:

'Last time this happened, I ended up £150K in extra debt, and with a practically ruined relationship with DB. You ask 'what shall we do' and my advice as both a sister and an accountant is 'Go bankrupt and stop trying to run businesses - it is ruining your health, your financial future and your relationships'. That is what I believe is the best and most sensible approach. If

pretty I do feel bad for him. He did want to buy the house, but he couldnt
a) he already had a house and was not in a position for the extra mortgage / borrowing etc.
b) my dad didnt want to sell it to my DB. Sadly sensibly dad did not think he would honour any deal about not chucking us out / allowing dad to live there / take care of dad.
I feel bad because I know dad is right. DB would not have done the above.

The loan was originally in his name, however it was secured on my house. When he defaulted (and didnt tell me until I got a repossession hearing) I didnt have much choice other than to take on responsibility for the loan or sell the house. By this time, I was pregnant with my eldest, my dad was sick, and my younger bro had left living with mum and come to live with us, so i remortgaged, and paid off DBs loan. I now have a £300k mortgage on my £350k house (£100k my orignal mortgage, £180k to settle DBs stupid crappy bad rate loan, and £20k which i used for some improvements).

The though of trying to take him to court to get the money back just isnt something I could do, a i wouldnt get it anyway and b, it would destroy the relationship we have built back up. Also as I said my dad is ill, and I suspect he would find me and DB battling it out very difficult to deal with.

Oh and as Gnome says, as far as getting officially involved in his business - make it quite clear that there is no way you are going to put your own career at risk in this way. Evidence shows that to get involved in a business that has your brother at the helm is idiocy.

Throw it back to his mother. Yes, what is she going to do? Remortgage herself perhaps?

gnome I have essentially written the money off, which is the sole reason we have been able to even start getting on again. I havent told him that as such, but in my head its gone. Since we have reconciled, Ive already had a couple of "well when x pays me, and i make y profit ill give you z". However I never get "Z" because someone else or something else always comes up. I suppose I take it as a positive that he still acknowledges that its there.

Other than that I know you are right. The consequences for me are massive, and impact everything. I am the sole provider for my DCs, I cant afford to bail DB out. I have no idea how I would control him, because at the end of the day, the business is his and he would spend the money as he always has done. Ultimately he must have lost £250k over the years, and I can guarantee that is through bad management and pocketing cash. He reckons he needs £70-80k per year to keep his wife and lifestyle.

I think hes nuts

Just read your last post.

He didn't tell his pregnant sister he had defaulted until you got the reposession order?

His own dad didn't want to sell the house to him as he thought his son would not honour any family promises and might even throw his own father and family members out on the streets?

Seriously, you really need to think very hard here. The feelings of guilt you have over this situation (likely to be very cleverly managed by your manipulator of a brother and his seemingly equally irresponsible mother) are a real threat to your own family's security. If you have any sense, STOP feeling this way, and DO NOT get drawn in.

It seems clear that your brother is (even if not maliciously) a complete shyster who will bring you NOTHING but trouble.

You've already got a family and a large mortgage to contend with. Don't risk their future security ANY MORE for this guy. You KNOW he wouldn't do the same for you. Refuse to engage. Tell them you simply cannot face getting involved and putting your childrens' futures at risk AGAIN. No meeting. No discussion. You are NOT prepared to get involved.

shouty You are right, that is what I should say. So why do I feel so darn guilty about it!

I think, no I know he just buries his head in the sand. He just assumes it can be sorted. TBF my dad is very like this as well. However, my dad learnt by his bankruptcy. He now doesnt do credit, manages his money to the penny.

DB seems to live by the whole spend money to make money creed

He didn't even tell you he defaulted on the loan secured on your house?? This is apalling behaviour. And by the way, your dad is in a position to leave his house/sell it to who ever he wants, and your DB does not have an automatic right to the equity the house has built up during the property boom. This is nuts.

His wife's family can't be that rich, wealthy people have happily been using bankruptcy and insolvency as a way to re-arrange assets and avoid debts for generations.

Where does the guilt come from? Why do you feel responsible for your brother? Is he younger then you?

Thats why he didnt tell me about the reposession, I honestly believe he just assumed a debtor would pay him in time and he would be able to "catch up and sort it out"

Please listen to the shouty hamster. This man and his family do not care for you, you are a cash cow they can manipulate at will.

If this we really a sound business with a short term problem that could be traded through, he'd be able to borrow from a bank wouldn't he. But instead he asks you - again. No way, don't jeopardise your sound financial planning again. He sounds like an arse.

I take the previous comment back, family members can be insane, but it doesn't mean they don't love you. That was a bad mumsnet style knee jerk reaction.

midi They are new rich. DBs wifes dad has made his money through his company. And I suppose by that I mean the £1m house, and the enough money for a helicopter (why they never go anywhere) and holidays and no longer working. Fair play to them they have earned it, but DBs wife is a snobby mare, and the thought of being married to a "failure" eats away at her.

pretty I dont know why I feel guilty, I dont know why I feel I have to look after him. Hes older than me. He was there for me when my parents split up. But other than that I dont know. Im currently in therapy, and I seem to have some deep abiding feel of conflict (probably my parents relationship growning up I reckon) and a constant need to try and please everyone. We are working on that, because its those stupid traits making me feel like I should help. Luckily this time round I have my DCs, and they are more important to me than my DB, so I feel like I shouldnt help, but then I end up feeling dreadful because I feel like I am at war with myself.

You are not your brothers keeper. and I think you have gone above and beyond the call of duty to him before now, if he has been stupid enough to get himself in such a mess again then I think it is time to let him man up and get on with it.

If he does anything (else) stupid it is his fault and his fault only NOT yours

some deep abiding need to avoid conflict

Can´t someone (not you OP), take out a bankloan for the 50K for the few months needed?