AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

No no no no no and another million nos!

My SIL is like this, albeit on a much smaller scale. She has been bailed out on so many occasions over the years that people have lost count. Her parents have paid her debts several times and her big brother, my DP has twice paid large and unnecessary bills for her. She has never learned the real value of money and money is now a big issue between her and her husband, albeit as part of a larger problem.

People like this never learn and they never pay back what has been spent on them because for some reason, on some level, they think they are entitled to whatever us given to them and more besides.

You do not have the moral right to risk your children's financial security because of an imagined obligation to someone who is old enough to make their own mistakes.

"Cannots:
DB (bad credit surprisingly not)
DBs wife(bad credit)
DBs wife family (apparently they are not allowed to know the situation, and must at all costs not know about the financial / practical and emotional difficulties at all costs, on DBs wifes orders)"

Add:
fallenninja (because she has already gone above&beyond, because she has DC to look after, because DB is an adult and should look after himself, on senua's orders)

How dare SIL put her embarrassment ahead of you and your family's financial security.

Not one person on this thread thinks you should do this!

Seriously, do not be a doormat, it is not your problem. What kind of message is it to your children that you'd send by giving him money - it's OK to let people just walk all over you? Because they made you feel guily?

Don't do it!!!

YY, please listen to ShoutyHamster and add yourself to the "no" list. You have DCs, that plot of land is THEIR nest egg, not a resource to allow your "D"B to take his wife to the Bahamas again.

May I just ask, with regard to the alleged mental health problems, suicidal thoughts etc. What steps has your DB taken to get help with these? I just ask because I suspect they might be aimed at putting the thumbscrews on you.

Do not give him any more money, whether loans land or anything. He has jot learnt his lesson and he should be made to face up to his mistakes. What if you need money in the future, or your kids do ...... He has already taken a load from you so do not offer anything other then ideas.

Actually fuck it, tell your DBS wife family about the situation ..... They should make an effort to help.

Ignore the emotional blackmail. Do not give any money at all.

I am going to move myself & younger bro to the cannot list. I will move DBs wifes family to the can list. I am then going to send it to DBs mum. There is no way, just no way I am going to lend him money. Certainly not the amount of money that is being asked for.

I also think it might be wise to not attend the meeting tonight.

teacher DBs mum made the suggestions. DB is currently staying with her under what amounts to house arrest following his suicide attempt. I cant get near him to talk to him, to see if these are his ideas or hers.

shouty No he didn?t, not really, although I maybe should have kept a closer eye on him. Although the reverse of that is maybe he should have kept his promise. The main conditions were to ensure that the loan was paid (done for the first 6 months then not) stop pocketing the cash (not done and i suspect but cant prove he was dishonest about the amount he had when i finally tackled him on it)

morloth I am not going to loan him the money, I shall let the less insane part of me win out. However it doesn?t stop me feeling bad about it. I know what a mess he is in. My dad had a breakdown, I lived through that and it was horrible. I think the guilt comes because I have it in my power to stop this for him, but I dont want to. My reasons for not wanting to are perfectly good valid reasons to do with my DC, their future and my future, and stopping my DB going through this is not (IMO and it seems everyone elses) enough to outweigh the reasons, but I still feel guilty. I intend to not let that stop me making the right decision though. I think DBs mum knows this, which is why she is pushing more for the me running the business, because it will let DB have his money and his lifestyle without the actual hassle. But i dont want to do that either!

DBs health problems are as far as I am aware real.

He has been on medication for depression for the last 6-8 months. Of course according to his mum, thats because of his financial / emotional problems, and he didnt feel he could approach me for help because of how unreasonable I was before! He therefore did not pay his accountant, who would not therefore do the work on his accounts, and therefore he is late filing with companies house.

I belive his attempt at suicide was genuine. He was found only by accident. He had taken an cocktail of different medicines. He was taken to A & E. They pumped his stomach, kept him in overnight. His not so dear wife refused to have him at home, so he went to his mums. He has an appointment with his GP on Thursday. I understand he will be being referred to the physch service.

Certainly not the amount of money that is being asked for.

not anything, nothing at all

You must be firmer than this. You are still leaving space to be manipulated. Close all the holes so they cannot worm in. Seriously.

fallenninja

Does your DB's business have any assets that you can buy from him (at realistic second hand/forced sale prices) ?
You could then rent them back to his business by setting up a standing order from his business account.

This would free up cash for him and you could then sell the assets to recoup some money later if he defaults on his business rental agreement with you.

Personally though I wouldn't get involved. When family 'phoned I'd waffle like someone distracted by their own problems and allude to your own financial problems due to the split with your ds's father. Have a melt down, act slightly crazy, anything to make them back off.

Your DB and his wife want his family to fund keeping up appearances for her benefit with her own family. This is not worth £50,000 of your own money.

Good for you-please post and let us know how she takes it. I'm cross that all her solutions seem to involve you doing something quite drastic, so I am interested to see what her alternative plans are!

Well done-you have to put you and your children first. You're £150,000 down and can't be a never-ending pit of money for ungrateful relatives who ought to know better.

OK, fair enough. I'm very sorry to hear that- I would far rather it had been made up! Very horrible for him and all concerned and I hope he gets help.

Of course according to his mum, thats because of his financial / emotional problems, and he didnt feel he could approach me for help because of how unreasonable I was before!

This gets worse the more I read! How did she tell you this-does she think you are unreasonable as well? You are being emotionally blackmailed and I think she will be very suprised if you say no, you won't help. I would imagine they are banking on you to sort his mess out again and have no alternative plan...

P.S. you don't have it in your power to make his problem go away for good. You will merely be delaying the inevitable and the sooner he faces up to things the sooner he can start to recover.

You will actually be helping him by not giving him more money in just the same way it does not help an addict to give them a quick fix.

A long term solution is needed and if he is to make that long term solution work he needs to find it himself and make it work because it is his plan not his family's plan

How in the hell can db's mum have the flaming cheek to suggest you sell some of your property to bail her son out again, knowing that he still owes you £150,000??!! And the same question applies to your db's wife. Presumeably they both know that he defaulted on the previous loan whilst you were pregnant, and didn't even think to tell you until the repossession notice arrived - how in the name of holy fuck can they even consider asking you to help out financially again????????? He has some slight mitigation, due to his mental health issues - what's their excuse?

Sorry for the rant, OP - it's not aimed at you - I just had to express my gobsmackedness.

I hope you can keep this thread and the unanimity of opinion on it, at the front of your mind whenever you have to deal with your db and his family about this matter.

Fallenninja, you say you would feel guilt if you did not help him - presumably this guilt comes from feeling as if you 'owe' him in some way. You've mentioned two things that might be sparking this in you -

1. Your purchase of the family home ("DB feels a bit robbed of his inheritance")
2. "I dont know why I feel I have to look after him. Hes older than me. He was there for me when my parents split up. But other than that I dont know. "

So let's look at them both.

1. There was no inheritance of which to be robbed. Your father went bankrupt, which means he had nothing left, and therefore nothing to leave. By good fortune you were in a position to purchase some of your fathers forfeited assets so as to keep them in family hands. That's all. You robbed no-one, you salvaged something from the wreckage of a bankruptcy. Conclusion - your brother's a shit for making you feel that you 'robbed' him, when all you did was lessen the trauma all round.

And if anyone is being robbed of an inheritance - that would be your children. That £150k he had from you should have been theirs.

1. He is older than you so he bloody well should have been there for you when your parents split up. You are far too grateful for his 'being there', and frankly I suspect he was not as 'there for you' as you possibly believe. I'm sure he made the proper 'there there' noises, but did he actually 'do' anything? You sound to me to be very giving, and I think you may be giving him too much credit for this period.

You really have to get past this idea that you 'owe' him anything. You don't. He, on the other hand, owes you tons.

Shoutyhamster has given you some very good advice. Please, please, please take it. Do not allow these people to suck you dry, financially and emotionally. He has better sources of bailout than yourself - his wife and his wife's family. If they're not willing to go to them, tough. Frankly this man should not be bailed anyway by anyone, as he will simply piss it up the wall again anyway. DO NOT THROW GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD,

Cross posted with your post of 14:58:53 - his mum thinks you were unreasonable last time?? What the actual fuck? What planet is the woman on?

Your lending him money will not stop his mental health problems. They are entirely separate. You cannot fix this. And if you give him money, all you will do is lose money, not resolve his problems.

His mum (who I note so far seems to have gone not a penny in debt to help him herself) suggests that her poor misunderstood son didn't approach you for more help because of how unreasonable you were before?

You will really have to help me out on that one I'm afraid - I'm not terribly bright - would the unreasonableness refer to your going 150K in debt for him, or was it more that you were slightly miffed that he'd default on the loan and see you pregnant and homeless after what you'd done for him?

I do by the way take my hat off to their breathtaking chutzpah here - somehow it becomes a fault on your side that your brother didn't IMMEDIATELY turn to you to sponge off ask for help yet again. Errr...?!

Seriously, this is awful, you need to think hard about whether you need to be in a relationship with these people. I'm beginning to think that the first rift between you and your DB was the silver lining to losing £150K to him!

Very generous with other people's money, his mother!

Please stand firm, and if you think you might cave if you go to the meeting, then please don't. Please also bear in mind that even if you did sell your land, you wouldn't necessarily get a good price for it in this market and the sale might not go through quickly enough to help your DB in any case.

ShoutyHamster - would you like to join me on a road trip to visit the db's mum and tell her a few home truths?

No way Jose

SDTG - just let me get my biggest hatchet

fallen - Listen to Hully. Her posts may be dense, but the wisdom therein makes them worth re-reading

I'm reading your posts with increasing alarm, OP.

Do not lend him another penny. Not one. Don't buy his assets, don't bail him out. It is not your responsibility. It is not within your power to put things right for him. It just is not. His inability to run his business is not going to go away if you bail him out, he will be right back in this position again.

How much of all this is being engineered by his mother? You are being manipulated by her by the sounds of it. Pre all these problems with his business, were you manipulated in other ways by his mother vis a vis her son?

What is the age gap between you two? I'm just asking because you remind me in some of your posts of my lovely MIL who is 20 years older than her brother. She was like a second mum to her DB and he is like an overgrown, spoiled child with her. She's constantly fretting about his wellbeing and feels sorry for aspects of his life that are all of his own making - broken relationships, screwed up career, no children. Her parents treated the DB with kid gloves their whole lives instead of telling him to grow up. He in return did bugger all for them except cause worry.

Re the suicide/mental health issues. Look, I'm talking as someone who suffers from these issues myself. Having these issues does not exempt him from having to consider others' feelings and needs. Using his mental health issues as an excuse to behave how he wants to is manipulative. And, in the circumstances you describe, borderline evil, because you have so much on your plate and nobody else is watching your back for you and he knows that. I'm sorry if that offends you or anyone else, but depression is not an excuse for the emotional and financial battering this man has given you - any more than it would be for a physical attack.

'Helping' him didn't help him before did it? 'Helping' him this time won't help either. He'll just do exactly the same thing again. And again. And again. Meanwhile, you'll get pulled down too, and anything you build up for yourself and your kids will disappear.

He's a grown up. He can get an IVA and take the consequences. Might do him the world of good.