AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

YADNBU, for the reasons stated above.Plus, wouldn't his wife be wanting a part of the cash you injected if they are splitting up? If there are divorce proceedings on the cards then any financial help he gets is going to be involved in the divorce.

You would be mad to consider this, going bankrupt sounds the best option by far for him. You are not responsible for his mental health problems, it is not your fault he is depressed.

Honestly do not even think about this for a second, don't do it!

YADNBU.
Thing is your DB will never learn.
Throughout his whole life, my father kept getting in to debt and people always bailed him out....at least until he was 60 and then there was noone left to bail him out. Only then did he have to work properly and make sure that he didn't spend more than he had in his pocket!
Emotional support and practical advice - YES; Financial support - NO!

yanbu to not help him. He was foolish the first time when he got into debt, you bailed him out, and he didn't repay you. Then he didn't learn.
If he chooses to kill himself over this, it would be in no way your responsibility (my gmother killed herself btw)

Would second controlpants comment that Payplan are an excellent debt management company. If you want more information about IVA/bankruptcy then I would approach them in the first instance.

It would be madness to give him more money. His mental health is not your responsibility. I can't believe anyone is expecting you to help him out after last time (and I can't believe you are considering it - you must be much nicer than me).

He may be in a dreadful place - but your DB's mother is not helping one little bit by even contemplating you pouring more money down the drain. She needs to accept that the cause of his handling of money needs to be proved. He needs counselling, possibly to get an IVA which he needs to manage. You lot doing his IVA payments is infantilising him. Are you prepared to put yourself on the breadline for him? Because you won't help him until you teach him how to take responsibility.

NO NO NO NO and NO. Do not provide any further financial help.

He is not capable of running a business. If he were, he wouldn't be in this mess. If you go down the IVA route to save his business, you'll be back to square 1 in a few months'/years' time. If you all feel the IVA route is best to save him from the stigma of bankruptcy, fine, but don't pump additional money into it. If he's got any saleable assets at all, use them to pay off the IVA dividend. In my experience, creditors don't have a whole lot of choice to oppose an IVA and don't tend to because getting a few p in the £ back is better than the nothing they'd get in bankruptcy. But most of the IVAs I've advised creditors about have ended in bankruptcy anyway.

The emotional side is obviously very very hard, but surely everyone can see that you are having to pay back a whacking great amount of money from the last time and now it's someone else's turn. You can offer him emotional support, and if that's not enough for your family, you really have to think about how your brother and wider family are using you here and whether that's acceptable. I think you know it is not, otherwise you wouldn't be posting here.

I do really feel for you. We lent one of DH's "friends" (not been much of a friend to us in return) £10K a few years ago to get him out of his financial fix after he tried suicide. He also had his own business but clearly no business acumen at all. He's done everything he can to not pay us back, not offer us any security, continues to play the emotional card and is targeting my DH as being in the wrong for wanting the money back (or at least to have something put in writing to prove the money was lent). DH is terrified to get tough with him because he fears he will be blamed if this friend tries suicide again. I'm on the outside, I couldn't give a toss about this guy, frankly, and I don't see a suicidal "friend" in need, just a master manipulator.

YADDDDDNBU to reject financial help.

I actually think you were amazing to take out the first loan to help him, he did not keep up with his payments and has left you, as you have said, paying off his debt. He is asking for further help and money and you haven't even paid off the last one yet. I realise that you are an accountant and probably reasonably well off but you should be keeping that land for yourself (retirement, rainy day and on that rainy day you will still be paying off his bloody debt etc.)

I understand that it is his mental health that is making you consider this at all. If he was to do something and you had refused to financially help it would still NOT BE YOUR FAULT! It is really important that you understand that. You can be there for him emotionally but do not help him out financially.

I am utterly gobsmacked that there is any suggestion, even the slightest hint, that you should help your brother out financially again, fallenninja. And if anyone is suggesting it could be your fault if he does something 'stupidly stupid' if you don't hand over more cash, then they are guilty of emotional blackmail and utterly out of order. You went waaaay above and beyond the call of duty (or even family love and loyalty) the last time, and your brother has let you down and left you in debt, and there is no way you should be expected to dish out more of your hard earned money, basically as a gift to your brother, when he has learned nothing from his previous experience and has wasted the opportunity that you bought for him, at great cost to yourself.

I would attend the meeting and make it clear that you are willing to offer lots of support, advice, and assistance with the practicalities - but no money. Your brother needs help with his financial situation, and also needs to see a doctor about his depression. But he has to take responsibility for both these things - because it IS his responsibility.

The thing is you are thinking in terms of 'do I help him out of his financial mess because his of mental health issues'

But. And it's a big but. But, giving him money will not help his mental health. He just thinks it will and everyone else has taken that as a given.

His ridiculous behaviour with money is a symptom of his mental health. His mental health problems are not because of his money worries.

All you will do is delay the inevitable and you will allow him to suck you into his chaos.

If you want to help then contact mind, find some local support services, get him some help.

But put your guilt to onside. It is not give him money or watch him deteriorate. It will just be lose money and watch him deteriorate further.

Stopping him from facing how bad things are has probably made him worse. Don't let anyone guilt you into delaying it any further.

Another one totally gobsmacked that he and his mother (assume he is your half-bro?) even have the gall to ask you. Is he not even the slightest bit ashamed and sad that he's saddled his sister with a lifetime debt?

It would seem that the answer to that is NO. And that tells you all you want to know about how 'successful' any plan to bail him out again would be. A normal person would have been so mortified at the carnage they'd caused that they would have learned their lesson. Your brother hasn't - while you faced up to an additional 150k of debt, it sounds like he carried on throwing the twenties around to keep his equally feckless wife in style, until the money ran out AGAIN.

So. As both a family and a business decision, what would be the BEST approach? It is OBVIOUS - to let him go bankrupt.

• As a business propostion: His track record shows that there is probably a 99% chance that any further money invested in him by you is simply a WASTE. He has no business sense - he shouldn't be propped up to continue in any form of self-employment, so both plan A (which presumably provides money for his to continue to run a business very badly) and plan B (which provides your input to help him run a business badly) are bad bad BAD business decisions. The best financial move for your brother would be winding up his business/going bankrupt and then for him to GET A JOB where ultimate financial responsibility does not end with him. Bad businesses and bad business owners SHOULD fail. It's the way it works. Don't prop up something that has no future as soon as the prop is moved away. Bottom line - 'helping' him here ISN'T helping him in the long run. And it certainy isn't helping you or your family. Because this man can't run businesses.

• As a personal, family decision: Same thing, really! This man CANNOT run a business - he is financially incompetent. For his family to collude in his delusional outlook on this ISN'T real support. Further to that, the facts of the previous bail-out and the way he handled it show some additional, really unpleasant, utterly unreliable sides to his character. I note that you are here worrying about how to handle this - if the shoe were on the other foot, you wouldn't see your brother for dust, I can tell you. For him to be able to accept such a massive loan, piss it away, see the effect of his betrayal on you and then come back for more... well, the facts are that he is selfish, entitled, utterly blind to the effects of his behaviour on his family, delusional about his own abilities, and utterly arrogant at some level. But who can be surprised if his family has always assisted him in making sure he never has to take ultimate responsibility for his decisions?

Here's a thought. Picture what might be the scene now if, way back then, you'd just said that you couldn't help out. He'd have gone bankrupt. Presumably his selfish wife would have left him then. He may have tried to start up other ventures, but would have been unlikely to succeeed. By now, he might well have learned a few valuable life lessons, and have become a more sober, sadder but wiser person who might have realised that getting a job and looking for a partner with different values might be the road to true happiness. In short, he might have grown up.

Instead, in the wake of the help which cost you and your family so dear, he is in EXACTLY the same miserable place he was then - and more so. Tell him this. Tell him that you love him and you're damned if you're making the same mistake of propping him up like an overgrown child AGAIN, and setting him off on the same ridiculous cycle. Tell him to get help - counselling and debt management, and that you'll be there for advice, but as for money - you think that giving him any more money is tantamount to putting a gun to his head.

My uncle (uncle A) was in a similar situation to you a good few years back with his brother (uncle B). He did lend him some money, but not as much as my other uncle was hoping. A few weeks later the uncle B did in fact kill himself (there had been no sign that this was a possibility).

It's taken a long time, but uncle A now knows that there was nothing he could have done to stop this happening. The money was not the issue. The problems were far more deep seated and only professional help would have (possibly) saved uncle B had he been able or willing to seek it.

Do not be guilt tripped by your family into helping your brother further financially at the moment. I can't see how this will actually help in the long term. History has shown that he will not act responsibly when given this sort of help, his relationship with you will deteriorate again and this cannot be beneficial to his self-esteem and mental health.

He needs help to rebuild his life but I think that help needs to be external, and he needs to ask for it and accept it wholeheartedly.

I wish you luck, it's a horrible situation.

I agree that bankrupcy may be the best option for him. It would probably come as a huge relief.

Charming thread title!

But, no - of course you are not in any way responsible for rescuing him from his financial messes (and nor is anyone else in the family). He can go bankrupt, surely.

Being extremely desperately broke is not a reason to commit suicide, he needs treatment for whatever else is making him feel suicidal. Which could be the breakup of his marriage or just feeling humiliated or incompetent over the collapse of his business, or any number of other things.

Of course you should not tip money into his bottomless pit.

No reason you shouldn't be sympathetic and concerned though. You can say to everyone "I't such a pity he's got himself into money troubles (yet) again. I don't see how it will ever stop. He's already had £150,000 off me, so obviously I won't be giving him any more. Such a shame"

Repeat "He's already had £150,000 off me, so obviously I won't be giving him any more." multiple times yo anyone who suggests you should give him more.

Bless You. YADNBU stay away from meeting, you don't need to get involved unless its to join people lining up for repayment of money.xx

Good God NO! Don't give him any more money!

It's a real worry that he is mentally ill but it's not your fault. You are paying off a massive loan because of him which you shouldn't be as HE should be. I would tell his mum that you would have helped him out if he had stuck to the agreement last time but he didn't, leaving you HUGELY is debt!

You can't keep helping someone like that! Not by giving them money anyway.

YANBU - dont give him anymore money - he onb didnt learn the first time!!! Ther trouble with bailing someone out is they NEVER learn..he needs to dig himself out the shit and take responsibility for his own actions - it's not your problem.

Sell your plot of land and pay some of that massive loan off you have (thanks to him!)

Do not give him any more money!

Do your family think you are some kind of bank? We have had similar with my brother but nothing like the amounts you are talking about and we have all agreed that it is in no-one's interest to help him out financially. I told my mother that the best thing for my brother would be to get a bad credit rating, then banks would stop giving him more money for her to pay back.
Let him go bankrupt. You have already gone above and beyond the call of duty.

This is what bankruptcy is for, to rule a line under shit, to not get stuck with lifetime debts, to have a fresh start. What is the point of an IVA? He won't be able to stick to it. Getting him into treatment for depression, and helping him through the bankruptcy process is going to be more help than dumping more money onto him. Giving him money is not going to sort his life out, cure his depression and bring his wife back.

You're an accountant, what would you tell a client to do? It sounds like you are under a silly amount of pressure from family to once more step into the breach. The family needs to get used to the idea that money is not going to sort his problems.

YANBU.

Tell him and family that you have gone over and above helping him and as you are now paying his loan of £150k plus interest back you will not be risking your family home again. And yes sell your land to pay some the loan back.

It's down to your brother and his wife, and yes she is a much to blame as your brother. They need sort out their financial mess, not your family.

YADNBU you've gone way beyond the call of duty once before and had it thrown back in your face. Tough as it is he needs to sort himself out, with love and support of course, and not just sit back and let his family bail him out. Sorting his finances for him will not cure his mental health problems.

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies. I know deep down that I am not being unreasonable. I know I am, but then this annoying stupid little part of me, just wonders.

To answer some points:
Yes we are half siblings. The pressure is coming from DBs mum and her husband. And its not so much pressure as in pay him the money, its more arrggghhh what are we going to do, we cant help him we have no money / sense / idea etc. He doesnt want to borrow another £150k, hes only owes the massive sum of £50k this time around. This is basically to 1 creditor, who supplies all of his stuff. If this creditor refuses to sell him stuff, or takes him to court, DB will obvioulsy go bankrupt. The idea is if he can hold off this creditor for 3 - 6 months and his business is run properly in that time, there is a realistic chance that all will be OK completely forgetting about the orignal debt to me. Having done figures for him I know that it is possible, however I stand by that it is unrealistic whilst DB is in charge. However then we get into the AIBU for refusing to run the business for him? It is practical support that I could and am qualified to offer, I just dont want to.

The reason this has come about is because I brought my dads share of the house when he went bankrupt ages ago, and then took a mortgage out for my mums half (they were seperated) so she could go purchase somewhere else. House was only valued about £220kish when i did that. It has increased in value (now £350k) - DB feels a bit robbed of his inheritance, which is why there was so much fall out last time he wanted the money.

His wife is from an extremely wealthy family (she still has an allowance from her dad even though she is late 30s and been married for 10 years!) and she does not want the stigma of this, which is why he is desperate to avoid bankruptcy.

I suppose the difficulty is, I am happy to offer what emotional support I can, but I am not willing to offer anything else. And this is where I feel I AIBU. However I have my own problems. I am looking after our sick father (cancer) am involved in an expensive court battle with my ex over our DS, and am suffering from anxiety and depression. I just dont want any more hassle and responsibility, but arrrgggghhh.

Just say no, and keep repeating. You owe him nothing but the support. Don't blame yourself for anything. His mother is being a cow and trying to emotionally blackmail you. Tell her to remortgage her house for her son.

Give him support and professional advice but no money, unless you want to gift it to him, and leave yourself on a lifetime of debt covering the other £150k. You know you'll never get it back and he is so feckless he'll be like this in another few years. You can gift it to him if you wish, but know it is a gift not a loan, as you'll never see it or the other money he owes you ever again.

If it were me, I'd be trying to get my own house cleared of mortgage first. Sorry, to sound selfish, but my home and my DC's must come first. I've lent my DB money in the past (small sum a admittedly) but have always known that I was gifting it and didn't expect it back.

You are definitely NBU to not give him more money!