to be totally wound up and pissed off....very very very long story (sorry)

[Stars82]

Ok I need to set the scene for ya

I work in the care industry, we are often subjected to many forms of abuse (not just from those we are care for either) We get bitten, scratched, sworn at, punched, and recieve an abundance of verbal abuse....

I was involved in an incident today which has been playing on my mind at little...

All names have been changed
CAPITALS are used for the raised voices in the convo

Bad timing is a particular bug bare of mine, I detest being late for anything. I arrived at Bett and Bills at 0923 (for a 0930 call)

I went into the house and greeted them in a polite, happy and professional manner only to be greeted back with moans and looks of disgust, general rudeness (not unusual sometimes). The convo is as follows

Bill: You are very early stars
Me: only 5 minutes, my sheet say 0930
Bill: (huffs and pants, clearly pissed off) It is meant to be 0945 on a Friday
Me: honestly Bill I am not lying (shows my sheet)
Bill: Don't care what it says on there it is 0945, Our breakfast is going to be ruined now
Me: sorry bill but seen as I don;t come here regulary I am unaware of betts particular timings, I just follow my sheet. I will wait until 0930 and if 2nd carer doesn't arrive I will call office and wait in the car (getting a little wound up at this point)
Bill: THE OFFICE BLOODY KNOW THE TIMINGS..

at this point 2nd carer walks in to more groans and huffs etc

Bill: here's another one that is too early
2nd Carer: Sorry????
Bill: you are not meant to be here until 0945 (very angry now)
2nd Carer: my sheet also states 0930 Bill....
Bill: I'm not having this I'm going to eat upstairs.....
Me: I will go outside and call office
2nd Carer: (reminds bill of timings policy etc)
Bill: WELL THAT DOESN'T BLOODY COUNT IN THIS HOUSE
2nd carer: well it clearly does bill
Me: right I am going to call office
Bill: WHATS THE BLOODY POINT
Me: well yu are clearly annoyed at something that has been way beyond our control bill and I feel I need to talk to the office. You are being very rude and aggress
Bill: I AM NOT BEING AGGRESSIVE
2nd carer: you are bill

We then go outside, inform office to be told that Bill has a reputation for being extremely hostile, to try to do what we can, and remember we are not paid to take abuse of any kind. The office will call Bill

We return....

Me: Bill the office are going to call you
Bill: well don't bother
Bill: you ahve totally ruined our breakfast...(has a rant about nurses and timings and other appts)
Me: again Bill I am NOT physic
Bill: just stop talking, you are delaying breakfast even further
Me: hang on a minute, this has been a two way convo, we are both delaying breakfast
2nd carer: bill there is not need to be so rude
Bett: (to me) and you turned up at 0920!!!!
Me: I actually turned up at 0923, and in all the times I have been to you Bett, I have always been either on time or very slightly early and not ONCE have you ever said that you didn;t like it. I have even turned up to find a carer has already started and again noting has been said. You can't pick and chose when you feel it is going to be acceptable to accept a carer early!!!!!
Bett: OH JUST SHUT UP!!!! (also has rep for being rude and nasty at times)
Me: and we don;t get paid enoughto take ANY FORM OF ABUSE
Bill: right thats it

Bill moves in to grab my arm which I doige

Bill: go on and get out
Me: I am more than happy to leave but DO NOT TOUCH ME, I have no objections being asked to leave but you will not lay a finger on me

We both get our things and head to door, at this point bill panics..
bill: no 2nd carer you can stay
2nd Carer: no bill this has also involved me, you have been rude to me and I havebeen involved in this arguement, If we leave we both leave I have also said my fair share today

Called office etc etc

AIBU to think that this situation is totally out of order?? I feel really wound up by it and I keep replaying it in my head :(

I am always polite and professional and have a good rep at work and feel that this will cast a shadow. Totally annoyed

OP, I think you handled it badly. I think you absolutely need some classes in de-escalating situations and maybe even dealing with grumpy or irrational people; you also need to not think of these people as cases or visits.

You may well have been technically correct, but you lost the war because you focused on this small battle over time. And in the end Bill wasn't convinced about your sheet, and Bett didn't get the help she needed.

'Was polite
remained calm
called office
continued to remain calm
stood up for myself
didn't swear
didn't point
apologised
tried to explain and reason
still reamined calm even being sworn at
left when asked despite almost being grabbed
called office again'

This 'good' handling of the situation all backfired spectacularly. If you think using the same approach will yield different results the next time you encounter a cantankerous client, dream on.

You need to find out how to completely ignore someone who tends to bait you. You also need to acknowledge that if a sheet says 0930 (or even 0945) then arriving at 0923 is going to piss some people off. And also that it doesn't matter what your sheet says and even worse, insisting on what your sheet says means Bill has absolutely no comeback and is faced with an automatic 'you win and he loses' situation, maybe ok in your Iraq experience but not what you are aiming for when dealing with the elderly in the UK. What you need to try to do is figure out a way to show Bill what a win win situation it might be for you to be early, or at least to distract him enough with blarney to get your aim accomplished.

Here's one approach

Here's a synopsis of 'Getting to Yes'.

From 'Getting to yes':
Separate people and issues
Focus on interests rather than positions
Generate a variety of options before settling on an agreement
Insist that the agreement be based on objective criteria

These are all good people skills to concentrate on and develop so that you can deal better with your stressful job, maybe eventually be promoted or even move into a different area.

dear uselesscamhs

Alzheimers sufferers are still people, and they have the right to be treated with respect. They can't be held responsible for their behaviour. They, like mentally disabled adults, have diminished responsibility for their actions.

sadly this not true just because some has dementia this does not mean they have free pass to do things .
If they are in wrong setting they will get lock in their room if they walk around weeing everywhere.
if they are in the right setting they will get away with that but they wont get away with hitting people.
then they have to go some medical if there is room for them!

in their own home they wont get the care they need as carers will run like the op and co worker did.
I suggest you start look at dementia homes now.

dealing with anyone with dementia is easy really if have made a mistake and started off on the wrong foot you walk away and then come a few minutes later liked you have just arrived .

basely that is all the other person had to do
but as i have said before she was in shock as she had never seen this person nasty side.

mathanxiety even though you post is good
OP is there with a time limlt to x and y
if bill is not letting her x and it wont get done.
if she has to 10 mins with bill each time getting bill to say yes then he has to pay for it. double as they are 2 of them there.

Very interesting thread.

OP, I don't think you did handle the situation that well, and agree with other posters that comments about how much you get paid really were uncalled for and flamed the situation.

There are many issues around older people's care that range from the individuals actions and input to patients through to society and governments stand on what older people deserve. There is little emphasis on all levels that caring for older people is a complex role, because the all intents and purposes it is not usually a technical role. The value that older people place on their care is in kindness, understanding and empathy.

You can't teach that. All the training in the world around communication and interaction falls flat if carers and people who work with older people do not have exceptional role models around them to emulate their actions and also proactive leaders who are clear about what is acceptable and what is not.

"as for the carer using the wrong cloth surely both clothes are clean fresh every wash so does not really matter which one she uses"

Spectacular point missing! You use the client's preferred [insert object here]. Every single time

Will now go back and read through rest of responses. Damnable sleeping!

"i feel there must be a guilt there
because of course you have driven to see to your mum
for over a hour each way"

Of course there is. What kind of person doesn't wrack themselves with "What if's"?

"the carers would done more driving that"

Many people commute, and for longer. Often in one hit whereas the agencies I've known try and keep your round fairly local. That's all the local agencies, not just the 'good' ones.

"and care for and done her cleaning and shopping and stuff"

If that's what they've been asked to do then yes. I cook to a prefessional level at least of hygiene, clean toilets, shop on foot pushing a wheelchair at the local market, butchers etc (Dude loves it, has suddenly started eating fruit ) and do personal care. It's called a job description.

"but you paid for care
whom you said was not up to standard"

Expecting to be paying for trained and professional people. Unless Frantic is an RGN or RMN with the financial ability to entirely quit work for an unspecified period of time and no other people to care for, why would she automatically be the best person? Caring for someone is hard. Having to do things for your Mum that she did for you as a child is humiliating and highly distressing. It was bad enough doing it for my Gran (and she can be a cantankerous old biddy at times too!)

I would pay carers every time. I'm in the fortunate position that they would also be colleagues and friends so I would know exactly what I was getting.

Oh, and I'm not a saint. Or a pearl. Or an angel. I just happen to have found a job I'm suited to. You wouldn't say those things about me if I had a talent for Estate Agency or Stock Broking!!

PP's have said most of what I would have. I think despite your insistence that you have been "trained" you show a distinct lack of understanding and compassion toward your clients. If someone turned up 20 mins earlier than expected in my home( timesheet or no timesheet) and interrupted my breakfast I'd be pissed off ( and I'm only 43!) add to which you aren't ( in Bill's eyes) an invited guest but a necessary evil and so to be honest, I would be very surprised if you had got a "warm" reception.

My grandmother is 103 this year. She is an amazing woman who had a career as a milliner before she joined the Land Army in WW11. My grandad died 30 years ago and she went travelling and learned a second language in her 80's. She is bright intelligent and fascinating. She is also opinionated, strong willed cantankerous and really pissed off that she can no longer walk, bake or do her own shopping. The only thing she can now really control is her day to day routine and if we say we are going to visit at 10.30am then it better not be 10.31! ;)

Currently she has wonderful carers that allow to remain in the sheltered accomodation she loves but it hasn't always been so. Not to say that previous staff had been bad at the mechanics of the job but more importantly they didn't see her as a whole person whose independence used to mean the world to her. Granny does appreciate that she has to have help to do things for her that she can no longer do for herself - but it doesn't mean she likes it very much and some days she hates it!

I get that no one should put up with abuse in their job but reading the OP all I can see is a man who is angry at the situation he finds himself in. I think caring is vocational if you are just doing it for the money without the inate ability to really care about who the people are that you are looking after and a desire to understand who they were before and what brought them to this point then you really shouldn't be doing the job.....sorry.

purple
am right i thinking you look after just on person all day

and as you have said in the past you have not carer for elderly even though you have a NVQ3 in care you have never done the op job

so why are you commenting ?

fanatic as mrs biscuits says she did not like the 1st set of carers so she move on something you should have done if you felt your mother was being abused.

the best person to care for some one is some one that wants to.

when someone does not want to care for there own kin,
one does wonder why should some else?

Health And Social Care is a popular subject at post 16

Maybe garlic's campaign needs to focus on that age group? In turn that would force employers to up pay and conditions to cater for a more qualified, confident workforce?

HSC has to be as much use to certainly less academic students as science? And afaik nvq 2 is equivalent to 2 gcse's. So the infrastructure is in place to do it!

I have several service users and work in residential care. My service users have various physical and learning difficulties. I can't say more than that in case I breach confidentiality (theirs as well as mine)

I have worked in various settings with people with various needs, but not elderly care specifically.

This is a public forum, we all have the right to express our opinions. If you think I'm wrong, please present yours which I will read and, if I agree, I'll change my mind. I'm finding people's experiences useful and will use them to improve my working practice

Ps Karen, what are you credentials as I've freely shared mine?

not I not saying you are wrong
but saying training is the answer is wrong.
the idea that nvq means you are fully train in every care setting is wrong.
and most good carers will work in few setting in time . for loads of different reasons.

you have a NVQ3 in care but you have not worked in every setting
surely you see the training system is a fault
you have all the training you need to work at the highest level( really means either little more money or management) in any care setting
but you have never had walk into a verbally and physically abusive mans home and wash him. this is OP person job day in day out. so in fact you have never been in the OP shoes even though you are fully trained.

love the idea that carers should to job for love not money.
I think you will find loads of carers doing the job for love they just dont get paid for if because they are taking care of their family.

Karen, you really do have zero understanding of people, don't you? My mother was just that, my MOTHER. It was humiliating for her to ask me, her daughter, to do the kind of things for her she used to do for me. She NEEDED to feel some element of still having control of her life. She NEEDED it for her own SANITY. The best way for her was to PAY for someone to come and do the things SHE needed and wanted doing, instead of relying on the CHARITY of someone close to her doing it all purely for love. In this way she didn't need to feel beholden. (or shouldn't have done) She didn't need to feel awkward about asking for things that were perhaps a little unpleasant, "I've made a mess in my knickers, I'm very sorry, I didn't get to the loo in time, could you help me get out of them and clean up, please"? How humiliating is that for anyone, who is functioning perfectly mentally but whose body is gradually giving up on them, to say to anyone? How much easier to say it to a professional who is or should be used to that kind of thing rather than to a daughter whose nappy YOU used to change, who used look to YOU for,first, boundaries and later, help and advice.

Also, you are dense? I have said that mum had some carers who were wonderful, whom she was fond of, used to and who made her feel safe and who she loved having around. We made extensive enquiries about other agencies in the area and they all seemed to be much the same, some good carers some not so good, the occasional one, downright horrid. Mum didn't feel any of them were going to any better overall and she would lose the people she was used to, who knew her, knew her routines and needed to ask fewer questions because of it.

As she got sicker even the effort of dealing with a new carer who just didn't know where anything was, who didn't know her routine was a real effort and ordeal.

The best person to care for a person IS indeed someone who wants to, but also someone who has no deep emotional tie to that person, someone professional who is doing the job because they want to. You clearly don't think that it's important at all that carers should want to do their job. To you is just a means to earn money. As I say, I pity your poor clients and I feel you have no business at all to be in the caring profession.

frantic do you you job because you want to or because you like eating?

the best person to care for a person IS indeed someone who wants to, but also someone who has no deep emotional tie to that person
.j ust because you could not to dont diss all the unpaid carers out there who do care for their mum/dads/husbands/wife/children/aunts/uncle/family friends/next door neighbors.
Are you saying they are not doing a good job?

every good carer gets emotional tie to person they care for.

fantic you did not want to clean up after you mum why would any body else WANT to.
they did because they got paid for it .
nobody wants to wash bums for living they do because they dont mind doing ( and other people do) .

there is nothing professional about care-ring for someone anyone can do just some don't want to.

My nvq supports my experience and was gained in my first job in 2004. Its one part of the ongoing training I do to improve. Unpaid carers have it far far worse than us pro's and one of the things I do on mn is hang around SN offering suggestions and support to stressed out parents who deal with these issues with no escape. Many are on my facebook and contact me when they want to.

I am under constant threat of physical and verbal abuse. I spend the vast proportion of my working time making sure my service users are listened to so they don't need to communicate with me in that way. The setting I work in allows me the luxury of time to do so

Just because I haven't done the op's job doesn't mean I can't empathise.

Frantic, this is obviously deeply upsetting for you. Pm me if you like

Karen I am not "dissing" those people who want to care for their own or who want to be cared for by their own. I know people who do and/or have done that and sometimes it works ok, nearly always works ok on a practical level, often doesn't on a mental health level though both for carer and caree. People should have a choice. A failing body or a failing mind should not rob someone of their human rights.

I had/have absolutely no problem dealing with poo or bums or anything like that. It's not that I didn't want to do those kinds of things for mum, it was that she didn't want me doing them for her! I did on occasion, if I was there and a carer turned up that mum didn't like, and had requested the agency several times not to send any more, or didn't know, particularly if they were very young and new. On these kinds of occasions, especially towards the end when her ability to do anything for herself at all declined with alarming rapidity, I was the lesser of two evils. The conversation usually went something like this:

Mum: "I'm sorry to ask you to do this"
Me: Laughing and trying to make light, "Don't be silly, mum, as if I mind! And you didn't ask, remember? I offered"

Mum: "I bet you thought your nappy changing days were over, didn't you?"
Me: "Well it's much easier than dealing with a wriggling toddler!"
Mum: "You shouldn't be doing it though"
Me: "Why on earth not? Mum, you're doing me a favour"
Mum: Me doing you a favour? How can you possibly say that?"
Me: choking, back tears, "Because you're allowing me to feel of real use to you for once"
Mum: Also tearing up, "You're always of use to me, talking to you some days is the only thing that keeps me sane, but you shouldn't be doing this"
Me: "I should, I want to!"
Mum: "well I don't want you to, it's not right, it's not fitting" etc etc

"there is nothing professional about care-ring for someone anyone can do just some don't want to."

Says it all really, doesn't it. You should really leave the caring profession, a) because you clearly seem to think that your clients should do everything your way whether they like it or not, you should be able to call all the tunes because you are the one doing the work, that they are the ones paying seems to matter not one whit in your eyes. and b) with people like you in the caring profession it's going to be uphill task to get society at large to treat the profession with any more respect and value the real professionals as they should be valued and paid.

What purple says is right in some way, she is just someone who has found a job she's good at, likes and does well. Isn't it a shame that those of us who have or have had loved one's on the receiving end, view her as and angel, a pearl etc because we know first hand just how bad some of her colleagues can be?

Who in their right minds, having read your posts and hers would choose you over her as their carer, if the choice was put before them?

Karen, sorry, what's your experience again? I think I missed that in your posts.

The way I read it, frantic's mum preferred to pay carers as she found it less humiliating to ask her daughter. That's called Personal Choice and is paramount to maintaining a person's dignity

frantic
I think it says something about mum
that she happy pay some other daughter/son do here shitty stuff
but you her princess where too good for the role ......

and please remember frantic purple does wipe a old lady bum for job and she would pay some else to wipe her own mothers.. she is has found a job she is good at and is it not looking after the elderly.

It's worse than that isn't it Karen? You actually resent having to wipe "old lady bum" for a living, don't you? You actually seem to resent old people too? Particularly if they "put themselves above you" in some way by becoming your employer? You strike me as the kind of person who would take perverse pleasure out of ignoring the wishes of such a person. And you have a job looking after the elderly?? Good grief!!

Bloody hell, karen2010, if you're a carer I'm absolutely dismayed. You're dismissive, insensitive and you just don't listen. If you exercise your 'professional' skills in the same way as you post then I'm really sad.

I'm angry that the quality of care in this country is so low. It needs to be at the same 'highest level', not pockets of it, padded out with this 'pseudo-care' that just 'ticks boxes'.

I'm going to write to my MP about care for the elderly. When I worked in social services, budgets for adult care were low and elderly care even lower on the list of priority spending.

Sorry, getting so caught up with karen, totally ommitted to say;
Well said Mathanxiety, wideawakenurse and mrsbiscuits and so glad that mrsbiscuits grandmother has found a really good care agency. I bet she's a fascinating woman, I'd love to be able to sit and chat to someone like her. In fact, I'd love to be able to care for the elderly, the awkward ones would be worth it to be able to interact with the others!

verity another "pearl" obviously
LWITW, you know this thread has inspired me to write to my MP too!

Karen are you joking? Because surely nobody in your role actually thinks like you do? I bloody despair.

Your attitude towards those that you 'care' for is appalling.
And yes I speak as a nurse, I started out as an HCA who has "wiped old lady bum" for many a year and has never once begrudged doing it.

I am sorry but you are coming across as vile and unprofessional and are clearly in the wrong job. I've never felt so mad about words on a screen, truly!

frantic
I'd love to be able to sit and chat to someone like her. In fact, I'd love to be able to care for the elderly, the awkward ones would be worth it to be able to interact with the others!

why dont you then ?
then you would a least know what the job is all about?

karen because I happen to have RA. This means that some days I'm physically incapable of doing what must be done, and I never know when those days will be, hence I would be unreliable and the vulnerable need reliability and continuity in their care.