to be totally wound up and pissed off....very very very long story (sorry)

[Stars82]

Ok I need to set the scene for ya

I work in the care industry, we are often subjected to many forms of abuse (not just from those we are care for either) We get bitten, scratched, sworn at, punched, and recieve an abundance of verbal abuse....

I was involved in an incident today which has been playing on my mind at little...

All names have been changed
CAPITALS are used for the raised voices in the convo

Bad timing is a particular bug bare of mine, I detest being late for anything. I arrived at Bett and Bills at 0923 (for a 0930 call)

I went into the house and greeted them in a polite, happy and professional manner only to be greeted back with moans and looks of disgust, general rudeness (not unusual sometimes). The convo is as follows

Bill: You are very early stars
Me: only 5 minutes, my sheet say 0930
Bill: (huffs and pants, clearly pissed off) It is meant to be 0945 on a Friday
Me: honestly Bill I am not lying (shows my sheet)
Bill: Don't care what it says on there it is 0945, Our breakfast is going to be ruined now
Me: sorry bill but seen as I don;t come here regulary I am unaware of betts particular timings, I just follow my sheet. I will wait until 0930 and if 2nd carer doesn't arrive I will call office and wait in the car (getting a little wound up at this point)
Bill: THE OFFICE BLOODY KNOW THE TIMINGS..

at this point 2nd carer walks in to more groans and huffs etc

Bill: here's another one that is too early
2nd Carer: Sorry????
Bill: you are not meant to be here until 0945 (very angry now)
2nd Carer: my sheet also states 0930 Bill....
Bill: I'm not having this I'm going to eat upstairs.....
Me: I will go outside and call office
2nd Carer: (reminds bill of timings policy etc)
Bill: WELL THAT DOESN'T BLOODY COUNT IN THIS HOUSE
2nd carer: well it clearly does bill
Me: right I am going to call office
Bill: WHATS THE BLOODY POINT
Me: well yu are clearly annoyed at something that has been way beyond our control bill and I feel I need to talk to the office. You are being very rude and aggress
Bill: I AM NOT BEING AGGRESSIVE
2nd carer: you are bill

We then go outside, inform office to be told that Bill has a reputation for being extremely hostile, to try to do what we can, and remember we are not paid to take abuse of any kind. The office will call Bill

We return....

Me: Bill the office are going to call you
Bill: well don't bother
Bill: you ahve totally ruined our breakfast...(has a rant about nurses and timings and other appts)
Me: again Bill I am NOT physic
Bill: just stop talking, you are delaying breakfast even further
Me: hang on a minute, this has been a two way convo, we are both delaying breakfast
2nd carer: bill there is not need to be so rude
Bett: (to me) and you turned up at 0920!!!!
Me: I actually turned up at 0923, and in all the times I have been to you Bett, I have always been either on time or very slightly early and not ONCE have you ever said that you didn;t like it. I have even turned up to find a carer has already started and again noting has been said. You can't pick and chose when you feel it is going to be acceptable to accept a carer early!!!!!
Bett: OH JUST SHUT UP!!!! (also has rep for being rude and nasty at times)
Me: and we don;t get paid enoughto take ANY FORM OF ABUSE
Bill: right thats it

Bill moves in to grab my arm which I doige

Bill: go on and get out
Me: I am more than happy to leave but DO NOT TOUCH ME, I have no objections being asked to leave but you will not lay a finger on me

We both get our things and head to door, at this point bill panics..
bill: no 2nd carer you can stay
2nd Carer: no bill this has also involved me, you have been rude to me and I havebeen involved in this arguement, If we leave we both leave I have also said my fair share today

Called office etc etc

AIBU to think that this situation is totally out of order?? I feel really wound up by it and I keep replaying it in my head :(

I am always polite and professional and have a good rep at work and feel that this will cast a shadow. Totally annoyed

That cant have been a nice visit for you. But reading some of the things you have quoted yourself saying, you didnt exactly help the situation.
You assumed the timings on your sheet were correct. For all you know, whoever booked bills time slot could have given him the wrong time. It wouldnt have taken much just to say sorry and that you would follow it up. Also telling him you are not physic would have without a doubt made things worse.

Clearly Bill was in a foul mood and clients like him are never going to be easy so you just have a adapt to the situation and just get the job done. Someone mentioned before about de-escalation training, there are alot of free sites online. Why not have a browse of them so next time your not caught off guard and can handle the situation better.

And I'd be very interested to know, Karen how, in your opinion, an old lady of 84, 5' 1" tall, weighing about 6 stone and unable to walk without support and then only a few steps is supposed to defend herself against a 25 year old amazon about to do something to her she doesn't want done?"

Added to which, she was in the advanced stages of bowel cancer and in a fair amount of pain. She died 3 months later.

frantic

yes carers are suppose to listen (of course it helps if they understand english many dont)

the lady in question surely should have flannels more easily to hand.
if you are employing someone for certain about time you need to know they can do what you need them to do in the time!

and how do you know all this?

where you there ?

if you were why did not find the flannels make sure they were in the right place

Karen The "lady in question" was my mother. I wasn't there, I was called by a neighbour and went to find mum very distressed. She told me what had happened, the quotes were poetic license because I had witnessed her interacting with other carers on many occasions. What mum actually said to me was "I asked her not to use the blue flannel, it had been used on my bottom, I told her I needed to yellow one, I asked her to hand it to me, told her I could wash my own face. She just kept going on about (everything I put in the other post) and wasn't listening to me at all and then when she bore down on me with the wrong flannel, I panicked, I just didn't want her to touch my face with it"

It was supposed to be up to the carers to keep to a system with the laundry and flannels, towels etc. Mum couldn't see to her own laundry, she couldn't carry anything because she could only walk a few steps with her zimmer frame and couldn't carry anything at the same time.

Fortunately that particular girl had so many clients complaining about her that the company eventually got rid of her. However, there were other incidents with other carers which were along the same lines, though not as bad and mum, being the sweetie that she was, never lost her temper on any other occasion, though I had plenty of tearful phonecalls from her after unpleasant visits.

People shouldn't be employed as carers in this country if they can't speak English. Communication is of paramount importance in caring. That particular girl had no excuse anyway as she was English, she just didn't give a flying fuck about anything or anyone but herself, bottom line.

People shouldn't be employed as carers in this country if they can't speak English.

not going to happen
take you have been in many hospital/ care home then!

if the agency was bad change it there are loads out there

and if the care is that bad you could do yourself you know

Oh, and when I looked in the ottaman, which was in the bedroom, the flannels and towels were clearly there on the top, yellow on the right and blue on the left, on the top, as normal. I don't believe the lazy cow had even opened it to look and mum was stranded in the bathroom without her zimmer when she "went to look" so couldn't follow her.

I dislike carer-baiting. It needed to be done by the TV teams that did it. The commonplace abuses, like your mum's appalling experience, frantic, need to be highlighted. OP could use an attitude adjustment (probably) and more specific training (definitely).

But the problem isn't all carers or some formless cloud of "carers". It's the shockingly low value we place on caring for vulnerable members of society - and that's systemic. People like Karen shouldn't be expected to pay for their own training, or to cover their own transport costs and workwear.

Surely training should be mandatory? I am horrified that agencies are even allowed to provide carers without being responsible for their training. They seem to be using you as contractors, Karen, but without paying you enough to sort out your own skills updates; is that right?

If the job weren't so undervalued, underpaid and disrespected, it wouldn't be taken by poor-quality workers who are just doing for the lousy money, with no interest in or understanding of the work.

It's a long time since I've felt so angry about anything. I'll be pestering Age UK but I fear they may be pretty toothless (no pun intended); I hope they aren't. I would also like to know which Westminster bods and other organisations are in position to push a betterment agenda.

In hospitals and care homes it is not so important for everyone to speak good English as there are multiple staff there to interpret or help in cases of difficulty. One to one in someone's home it is of vital importance.

There are other agencies, true, and after that particular incident we did look at changing but it was not going to be a simple process. We had two other agencies around and they had to evaluate what mum needed, if they could offer her what she needed etc. Mum had to give four weeks notice to the agency she was with otherwise she would incur penalty charges. Mum lived in sheltered housing and had friends who used the other agencies who reported bad carers in those agencies too. In the event, mum went into a hospice just six weeks after that incident and never came out again. Also, there were some very good carers at the agency she was with and mum always lived in hope that she would see more of them (some of whom she had become very fond over the years and who, in turn, were very fond of her. I was touched at how many turned up to her funeral and sent cards saying just how lovely she had been to work for)

The hospice was an entirely different kettle of fish. All the nurses and carers really "did" care for the people in their charge with true kindness and compassion and concern for their dignity and well being.

I couldn't care for mum myself because I live over an hour's drive from where she was living. We discussed her coming to live nearer us but, as I was working full time, I wouldn't have been able to see to her at lunchtime, only in the mornings and evenings and she would have been very lonely. Where she lived, she had been for many years (housing complex for the over 55s) and she had many friends. All of them of much the same age, not able to do much practically for each other, but the more mobile ones able to toddle along the corridors to visit the more infirm. She would have missed the other old boys and girls popping in to say, "hello" terribly. I used to go twice a week, once at the weekend and one evening a week to shop and pick up/drop off her personal laundry, clothes etc. Her cleaner used to do the household linen in the laundry room in the complex.

Mum valued her independence, like many old folk who have worked all their lives and raised their own family and never, until they drew their old aged pensions, taken a penny from the state. She paid her way, didn't ask for charity or hand outs, just wanted to be treated with respect by the people she paid to help her. Doesn't seem too much to ask. You obviously think it is. I certainly wouldn't want to be "cared for" or have anyone I love, "cared for" by you, Karen.

And that is probably the nastiest thing I have ever said to anyone on and I take no pleasure in saying it.

*on MN

garlic you are absolutely right. Carers don't have the recognition or the remuneration they deserve and so the profession, as well as attracting people who have a real caring vocation and are prepared to and want to do it anyway (saints like purple and others on this thread whose names I can't remember atm, sorry) also attracts a certain amount of people who just want to earn money and couldn't really give two hoots how they do it. They go because they have no real skills or training, and the agencies will employ them notwithstanding because not enough people with the right kind of aptitude and ability are prepared to apply for this kind of work because they a) can't live on the wages and b) would not be valued by society generally by doing the such a job.

I don't pretend to be clever enough to know how the situation can be remedied

wow fanatic

i feel there must be a guilt there
because of course you have driven to see to your mum
for over a hour each way
the carers would done more driving that
and care for and done her cleaning and shopping and stuff
but you paid for care
whom you said was not up to standard

its easily to compain about carers when you did not want to do the job yourself .

yes garlic
there is yearly mandatory training which i have to pay for and not work that day.
And yes carer are unvalued
most of the good natural carers are the one who are looking after their own family with no training at all .

love how purple getting a mention when she not worked with elderly

Stars82 I know exactly where you are comming from. I recently had to deal with an exterrmy difficult patient, who from no agrivation from myself ( I was being plesent, taking my time to explain what I was doing, moving the wheelchair and putting the break on so it couldnt roll away from me) and then he slapped me hard across the face! There was no call for doing what he did, nor did the other nurse on duty help me in ANY way. I just had to tell him what he did was wrong and remind him of what I as doing. When I was working during the week, although i held a grudge, I treated him like any of my other patients, polite and kindly, but also got no help from my management, but didnt know how to bring it up with them. I spoke to a psychogeritritian in how to handle the patient, but feel I get no help from my management team and dont know how to go about getting it or bringing it up with them. Help!!

No Karen no guilt. Sadness that I didn't have the money to stop work and care for her full time or didn't have the money to pay for a full time nurse/companion for her. Sad that I didn't have a caring husband who would allow her to come and live in our home. Sad and angry that she was from time to time abused by ignorant, ill-mannered, self-centred individuals in the name of "caring". But not guilty, not at all. I did everything I could for her and loved her to distraction and she knew that.

Purple gets a mention because she is one of those people who does the job she does because she loves it, because she has a caring heart, and is prepared to put up with low pay and society's snooty attitude to do the job. She is one of the world's "beautiful people"

You expect a mention just because you have worked with the elderly? Your attitude stinks quite frankly. I pity your clients.

I knew before I clicked that this would have turned into a bunfight.

I have not worked in the 'caring professions', however, most of my working life has been in high level customer service. I cannot imagine a scenario where I would be interacting with a client and a dialogue would take place as described and I would have escaped without a disciplinary meeting.

I have no idea why it seems to be acceptable in any kind of 'service' now to think that quoting regulations and asserting 'rightness' over your customer is seen as conflict resolution. No-one is saying that you need to bow and scrape, no customer respects that - you just need to be articulate and work towards resolving the issue and not inflaming the situation. If your customer has a problem - its your problem - that's part of your job.

I have an elderly mother, who so far is independent. I really am worried about a future where she might need 'care' from people who think 'they dont get paid enough to put up with this'. It's a pretty poor response for a carer to say that if we're not happy with our parents care, we should be doing it ourselves. Surely a trained professional should regard their occupation as something a specialist would do best?

I know people who have worked with adults with special needs and would get physically assaulted on an occasional basis. They didnt mind too much and regarded it as an occupational hazard. They also informed me that the danger was worth offsetting against their general job satisfaction and the help that they gave to the people they worked with. Now thats a vocation that deserves respect in my book - a couple of grumpy pensioners should be a walk in the park in comparison.

I have an elderly parent, too. Who now has Alzheimers D and is sliding inexorably towards dependency and 'buying in' care.

He has always been a difficult man and has become even more so as he has aged and his cognitive function has declined. He is fiercely but uselessly/falsely/chaotically independent. I imagine he will become a menace to any carer and can't see any way of pre-empting this. Despite being 81 he is still physically fit and strong and already frighteningly hostile to me if I don't do exactly what he wants.

He doesn't want to come and live with me or have me move in with him. I have a teenager and they clash terribly.

My father is the sort of person who the OP might likely need to care for. She has my complete sympathy. I don't think that he can be the only irritable, intransigent and irrational elderly person like this.

VirgoGrr I reckon it's because "service" has become a dirty word during the course of this century. In this country at any rate. Possibly because we hung on to the old "class system" for longer than the rest of Europe maybe? We've ditched that but hung onto the old English "game" of "one-upmanship". Nobody much is prepared to be seen serving someone else, even when they are being paid for it. Even fewer folk take any personal pride in serving others. I'm not that ancient but even I get nostalgic for the days when "can I help you madam?" and "glad to be of service" were commonplace phrases in even the local shops! Nowadays you're lucky if you can get the salespeople in even the better department stores to acknowledge your presence and we all wander up and down supermarket aisles helping ourselves and cruising around for ages to find out where they've moved the lavatory paper to this week!

We live in a socially mobile world where, if you haven't risen to "the top", you must be pretty useless because anyone can succeed these days dontchaknow?

Money is king, so the professions which don't generate money, like the caring profession, are seen as being of little value. Those in that profession are either there because they really love it and have a genuine desire to make life easier for those less fortunate or those who simply can't get alternative job's for want of skills or qualifications. Some of the latter grit their teeth and do the best they can and those are the ones who are "polite", "professional" and carry out their duties to the letter of the "rules and regulations" but really couldn't care less at the bottom line and are easily side-tracked from the job in hand by their own feelings of self importance and entitlement. Unfortunately a minority obtain satisfaction in some way or other from the daily evidence that there are some in society they can still feel superior to, and an even smaller minority who manifest that pleasure and satisfaction in some physical or emotionally abusive way.

My father could well be another 'Bill'

As my nickname suggests I work with very disturbed and aggressive people with mental health problems and have yearly training in de-escalation. I still can't de-fuse his aggression wh is only going to get worse as he becomes more demented.

The needs of elderly people like my father cannot be met and put carers at real risk.

Alzheimers is a difficult one to deal with and people need to be cared for by real professionals with plenty of training and those carers deserve society's highest levels of respect and decent wages and conditions.

However we need to remember that the patients are not doing this on purpose. No-one wants to have Alzheimers, no-one chooses it.

Alzheimers sufferers are still people, and they have the right to be treated with respect. They can't be held responsible for their behaviour. They, like mentally disabled adults, have diminished responsibility for their actions.

uselesscamhs I only know very little about this problem but a friend's father became very much as you describe your father is. My friend found that, once he went into care, he was more stable. The nurses were able to regulate his medication and it was easier for non family to deal with him as there was no history and therefore less confusion in his mind. Apparently, he was told, his father's memory would come and go to some extent so sometimes he knew his son, sometimes thought he was still a little boy, sometimes didn't recognise him at all as his son but knew he was someone of some significance and the old man found it all very confusing and frightening. We all lash out when we are frightened, "fight or flight" it's conditioning. We can't help it.

I know that there are support groups for the families of Alzheimers sufferers. My friend found them very useful. I can ask him for some addresses if you like? Or your GP probably could tell you where your nearest group is.

Completely agree frantic I love my father dearly. I hope that my anxiety about the very practical difficulties of providing him with care didn't come across otherwise,

He is but one among many.

My real point is that his future needs are already apparent and he will become a risk/hazard to carers like the OP as there are insufficient 'real professionals' . Which you rightly say are needed.

Sorry frantic crossposts and thank you.

You are most probably right he needs some kind of sedative meds and will need residential care sooner rather than later.

You're right I need some support locally. I've been offered that by my father's psych team but that is over 100 miles away etc

Think I'm unintentially hijacking yr debate with virgo. Apols

You're right, carers like the OP have no business trying to deal with Alzheimers patients, I don't think Bill was that bad btw, he was just an old man who had probably spent some time getting his and his wife's breakfast and was interrupted as he sat down to enjoy it. He may have been in pain and it may have cost him some considerable effort, he may have been aware that if that breakfast got ruined he didn't have the goods or the money to replicate it, I don't think he had Alzheimers.

We desperately need more highly trained carers but where do the candidates come from when the job doesn't pay enough to keep a roof over a family's heads. Something needs to be done. The elderly population is ever-increasing and by the time we all get to that stage there will be many more of us and many fewer carers at all, much less good ones.

No worries over the "hi-jack" everyone else seems to be in bed anyway

You definitely need someone nearer than 100 miles away. The group my friend goes to meets just once a month for a drink, they usually revolve around members homes, and try to get an "expert" of some kind (usually a psych nurse) to come every three months to answer general questions about the condition give advice about managing behaviours or simply talk about the condition from the patients' point of view, which can quite easily and understandably be overlooked in the day to day problems of simply managing to live!

I think it's just having contact with people in the same boat and having telephone numbers in between times if you just desperately need a chat with someone who really understands. Seems to have helped my friend anyway.

I know he got in touch with them through his local GP but I think they have contacts with other, similar groups up and down the country. I would ask at your local GP surgery and if you get no joy, PM me and I'll try and get more info from my friend.