to think that the middle-classes suck the very soul out of parenting (and life in generally actually)?

[bejeezus]

Ive been on/reading a few threads- about Unconditional Parenting, Attachment Parenting, Steiner blah blah blah. 99.9% of each of these 'philosophies' is common sense, the other 0.1% is deranged and warped interpretation of what started out as a description of common sense.

I am sick of people researching and 'reading round' subjects, analyzing and LABELLING EVERY activity and aspect of growing kids. People (and animals!) have been doing it since time began.

Is it because middle-classers have all been raised by nannies/ have no parental role-models/ have poles up their asses/ lack imagination/ HAVE no intuition/ have no faith in their abilities/ need to feel superior - WHAT is it??

What is wrong with intuition, spontaneity and getting it wrong? in fact I bet my socks there is some research some-where, that says that those are essential aspects of child-rearing and if you dont embrace them whole-heartedly, your childrens teeth will fall out/ they will loose the ability to speak and be in prison by the age of 25 years and 7 months.

Why am I bothered?;

I said on a Steiner thread in parenting that 'I hate wooden toys and all they stand for'

Then I got to thinking; actually I hate what they now stand for but I DONT hate wooden toys. I love wooden toys; the smell, the feel, the memories. But we used to scavenge the tips for timber/rob neighbours fence posts then get dad/grandad/uncle to help us build go karts/benches/huts with an excess of nail string and glue. Where is the soul and creativity in parents spending a weeks/ a months wage (or even a penny) on some imported sustainably sourced wooden toy fashioned by a stranger or mass produced in a factory? It has no more educational/ developmental value than a brightly coloured plastic toy. It is not more enjoyable for the child. It is more enjoyable for the parents BECAUSE IT LOOKS NICE IN THEIR HOUSE!!

Middle class parents are like the anti-Rastamouse;

'always there to make a good thing bad'

Class War- Bring it!

I expect most people get Baby Einstein stuff in the hope that the DVD will mesmerise their baby long enough that they can get dressed or get something done...or was that just me? I only had a free DVD which came with a newspaper.

@writerofDreams - my observation was that most of this has very little to do with the kids and everything to do with displaying parental status and influencing "School gate" pecking orders (whose kids get to be invited play with whose etc).

As you say, all the research shows that love, food, and ensuring decent schooling is nearly everything. Iirc when I looked at it, reading to kids, having books in the house, being interested in their interests and talking to them a lot made them faster readers/learners/more confident speakers etc in their formative years.

But that stuff cannot be displayed, so out come the aspirational names, 4x4 buggies, pretentious diets, designer clothes, loud parenting etc etc.

But as others noted aerlier, it becomes incraesingly clear as the kids get older that it just doesn't matter to the outcome

Discussions like this make me want to get rid of the internet, and live in the hills.

God, no, those DVDs and all that guff for babies is rubbish! Honestly, what does a baby need other than food, sleep and a heap of cuddly chats? I am guilty of taking part in some different baby activities, but only to meet other adults and get me out of the house.

Both my boys loves a medium to hot curry, with a keema naan. pains dh no end, becasue when we occassionally order from a takeaway,( rather than me making them, which I do ALOT), late, the boys wake up, come down and eat half of his. He has now starting ordering two !!
But they both love burgers. proper ones, american huge ones, and rubbish ones. and ds1 would go to burger king over any other place. so embarrassing.

baby einstein seems to have by-passed me. I just plonk mine down infront of nay old tv, as much as possible.
I refused to do massage or signing. But I did sign up for little dippers with ds1. swimming under water. what a load of shit. with women from twickenham in their cars that dh said were 85k basic, but they had all the add ons !! Yeah I got well suckered there. Trying to remember what other twaty things I've done/signed up to......

They need love, security, parents who take an interest and respond to the DC they have and not try and mould into the one they want, a balanced diet,lots of chat, books, interaction with the wider community, time to themselves, exercise, fresh air and a relaxed parents-who don't take themselves too seriously.

I'm still furiously searching Amazon for that book LeQueen has:

"How to get your child into a good local Grammar school by teaching them to eat seafood that isn't a fishfinger"

I was guilty of trying to get DSs to take fish oils-they refused point blank.I take them myself-haven't a clue if they make a difference!

It's because 'middle classes' are the ones in society with money who tend to be the most 'anxious parents' due to not having extended families around. They are therefore easy prey for toymakers, book writers and any other lifestyle peddaling fraudster who preys on people with more money than sense

Well. Hmmph. My DS will eat any type of seafood or anything really. (My MIL is convinced that he doesn't have tastebuds :) ) But I won't even get to try to get him into a local good Grammar because here everyone just goes to their nearest local school. We've only got one.

Sigh...I really think I'm missing out by not being part of this competitive school stuff. I coulda been a contender. :o

I give fish oils. They were recommended for Aspergers. now ds2 begs for them aswell. they both love them. god knows if they are useless.
little buggers love everyhting. no foodstuff is sacred in this house. dh cheered the other day, that they don't like onion bhajees,and that finally he had found ONE food that the little toe-rags didn't like, so he had half a chance of some being left, when he went back to the fridge !

Exoticfruits you can get fish oil chews that taste like fruit snacks. :)

WriterofDreams - Your post just made me, who's been tearing up all week about LO starting daycare soon - where there is going to be a void of anything remotley attachment parenting orientated, feel infinately better and more relaxed. Thank you - I do hope your right.

I am guessing that Baby Einstein is subtley different from Little Einsteins on the Disney Channel . Dd loved that.

There was a Saturday night not THAT long ago, where dd had Heinz spaghetti and sausages for tea, then got in her pyjamas and watched the Pink Panther followed by Dr Who. It took me right back to 1974!

MoreBeta - yes the whole Cloud thing is really exciting! The headhunters keep sending me bumf on excellent sounding jobs at Coca Cola with a flash car and lots of european travel. I think I will stay where I am, as there is so much going on and it's really fascinating! The security issue is a biggy I guess. If I had spare money I would be investing in firms that provide internet security as they are going to need some hot developments in this area.....

Molly I'm glad I made you feel better. Please don't worry about your little one - he or she will be absolutely fine. You obviously care about him/her (otherwise you wouldn't be nearly so worried) and that is literally the one and only thing that makes any significant difference in parenting. No matter how much the Daily Mail tries to berate mothers for daring put their children in daycare, there is actually no evidence whatsoever that it has any negative impact on children's development - in fact any impact it does have tends to be positive in terms of social skills etc. Children are hugely influenced by their peer group (which is a scary prospect really) and giving them a fun and lively peer group from a young age will do them good, not harm.

Writer - I agree. Dd's creche did activities that I never would have dreamt of at home! Lots of poster paint and messy play with cornflour and water. I think it does really help with food issues and potty training too, as you say peer "pressure" can have a really strong effect.

We left the UK when dd was 2. I packed up my job of 10 years and sold my house, but it picking up dd from creche for the last time that finished me off. I had to be escorted, sobbing to the car. The staff were so lovely and she had made loads of friends. I have a fantatic poster with Good Luck and all their hand prints on upstairs somewhere.

I work part time and ds1 used to, and ds2 still does LOVE goinhg to nursery. Both run off with a 'bye ummy'. with out a backward glance. And I let them do all the paint, playdough, sand, glitter etc play.
Tis fab. He loves it as much as i do.
Please don't fret.

I have only read through a few pages. I detest comparison-parenting. Everyone must do what is right for/what works for them. Everyone must find their own way. Everyone must make their own choices, and good for them for feeling good about their choices. That is always my hope for new mums... that they find their own way and feel good about their own decisions.

What disturbs me about this thread are the parenting decisions being equated to 'common sense.' Please do what you want to do, but in my private home, some of the behaviours that are derided as 'middle class' to me are common sense. I've worked these things out on my own. It has nothing to do with the jones'es. I feel good about my parenting decisions based on my own children and what makes sense to me. I think OP and others would judge me based on these decisions. That's a shame. Let's build each other up, rather than tear each other down. We're all different.

Me: I came from a full-fledge poor family, and I now am educated and comfortable, so not sure where I fit in.

lecce i couldnt have worded it better, seems to be the pattern on MN people just not minding their own business and judging others on what are completely private/personal matters.

Sounds fine Aspire-no one complains, sneers, whatever if people just get on and do it-it is the ones who do it loudly- as in 'I wear my baby and must be a better parent' type thing that annoys people. If you carry your baby all the time, there is no need to mention it, or even less to label it 'baby wearing' as if it is a designer handbag.
(fruit tasting fish oils were no good-DCs get wise and refuse to cooperate!)

Er.. I live in a 'working class' area - council / privately owned house mix. I think when we talk about the working classes, we mean actually those either receiving benefits or with physical type jobs, mechanics, labourers, shift workers, etc. In seven years of living in my area, and getting on with my mostly ace neighbours, (I teach and my husband is an admin officer at the local uni), and find that Bejeezus is right in that generally speaking, in this subjective observation... the 'working classes' don't read about how to live and how others live, they watch soaps and sort their kids out when they get back from playing out in the street. The mistakes thing is a red herring, though. Everyone, from all walks of life do that. I find teens are the only odd humans who expect their parents to be living gods.

why for me it is (in part) a class issue;

many of these parenting 'technique' and 'approaches' and life-style status indiators, that are showed off about loudly in Waitrose are what working class parents have been doing forever (out of necessity); examples are growing your own vegetables (without pesticides and insecticides-because it just isnt necessary), wooden toys, playing out, co-sleeping, baby wearing, that play-thing (name I cant remember) which is basically giving your kids pots and pans and house-hold objects and stuff you picked up in the rec/ street, to entertain themselves with.

When adopted by the more affluent members of society as a CHOICE, it is given a name and is presented as if it is something new/ novel/ superior and books are written about the 'subject'--it then seems it is assumed to be a middle-class way of life and suggested that it is WC kids families that live off crap ffod, sit infront of computer/TV all day, deprived of parental attention, get given plastic tat/unimaginitive activities to do

Bejeezus - personally you can stick your assumptions up your a**e.

I am middle class and I have wooden toys, co-sleep, baby wear and let my son play with pots and pans and I do so not because some so called expert has told me to it is because they are common sense approaches to bringing up a child - am I not allowed common sense because I am middle class/

The people you should aim your rhetoric at is the writers who are trying taking common sense approaches to child rearing and turning them into books.

Get down of your working class holier than thou pedestal!