to think that the middle-classes suck the very soul out of parenting (and life in generally actually)?

[bejeezus]

Ive been on/reading a few threads- about Unconditional Parenting, Attachment Parenting, Steiner blah blah blah. 99.9% of each of these 'philosophies' is common sense, the other 0.1% is deranged and warped interpretation of what started out as a description of common sense.

I am sick of people researching and 'reading round' subjects, analyzing and LABELLING EVERY activity and aspect of growing kids. People (and animals!) have been doing it since time began.

Is it because middle-classers have all been raised by nannies/ have no parental role-models/ have poles up their asses/ lack imagination/ HAVE no intuition/ have no faith in their abilities/ need to feel superior - WHAT is it??

What is wrong with intuition, spontaneity and getting it wrong? in fact I bet my socks there is some research some-where, that says that those are essential aspects of child-rearing and if you dont embrace them whole-heartedly, your childrens teeth will fall out/ they will loose the ability to speak and be in prison by the age of 25 years and 7 months.

Why am I bothered?;

I said on a Steiner thread in parenting that 'I hate wooden toys and all they stand for'

Then I got to thinking; actually I hate what they now stand for but I DONT hate wooden toys. I love wooden toys; the smell, the feel, the memories. But we used to scavenge the tips for timber/rob neighbours fence posts then get dad/grandad/uncle to help us build go karts/benches/huts with an excess of nail string and glue. Where is the soul and creativity in parents spending a weeks/ a months wage (or even a penny) on some imported sustainably sourced wooden toy fashioned by a stranger or mass produced in a factory? It has no more educational/ developmental value than a brightly coloured plastic toy. It is not more enjoyable for the child. It is more enjoyable for the parents BECAUSE IT LOOKS NICE IN THEIR HOUSE!!

Middle class parents are like the anti-Rastamouse;

'always there to make a good thing bad'

Class War- Bring it!

You are an idiot

Who??

Hold on. Have you thought for a moment that the whole 'baby market' is being exploited by anyone and everyone wanting to make some money.

First time parents are the the most vulnerable, and especially if they have a little bit of disposable income. They have the money to buy the books, cds and dvds. There have never been so many TV programmes and books aimed at rasing children 'properly'. Books to help the baby go to sleep, baby health and nutrition, development, baby names, toilet training, books to help babies stay calm - books to help babies talk, books to help a parent be more confident, books for raising boys, or raising girls, weaning. As if the baby might never learn to talk or walk, or eat or grow up if you don't buy the book and educational toys and wall charts and thermometer.

IMO what's happening is that parents are being exploited as a whole. Middle Class or working class. I bought into it at the beginning and realised very early on to listen to my own heart and follow my instincts. I am much happier now and so is ds.

Ha ha LeQ my six year old wants to work in in our local Tesco and my seven year old wants to be a chocolate taster (actually that would be my Dream Job)

I didn't really push them in any direction - I just tried to open up their minds to possibilities. DH and I married very young with no money at first, and have worked very hard to build up the life we have. But I have always scheduled and pushed them. Even when we lived in god-awful flats with terrifying neighbours and only one wage coming in, I read to them and taught them maths, and extra money was put aside for experiences and clubs. We went to museums and castles and I talked the hind legs off them.

Once when my oldest was about thirteen and we were in the car, listening to a news item about how parents only spoke to their children on average for five minutes a day, she rolled her eyes and said 'I wish - I have a problem getting mine to shut up..........'

If your children enjoy stuff, really enjoy it. Whether it be story writing, reading, thinking, maths, ballet. Then that is a good start.

I still really love doing certain things. And see it in my 6 year old. Other one too, but little. That's great. The parents were pretty good at ensuring we tried and enjoyed stuff.

AND I include sitting around doing not much at all. Being a bit bored, until someone thinks up a new game.

Is it because non middle-classers have all been raised by pram faces / have no money to buy poles to shove up their asses/ draw ridiculously over-sweeping generalisations / have menstruation / feel inferior - WHAT is it??

I am guilty of the following:
Baby Led Weaning
Baby Wearing (although I don't remember calling it that, I do remember being envious of a friend at ante natal group's sling which was far nicer than mine)
Baby Signing
Baby Yoga
Baby Massage
Breastfeeding mothers' group.
I even had a treasure basket.
My DS does half an hour's piano practice before school every day.
I buy the DC's clothes from Boden, Joules and Land's End.
They play with wooden toys and lego
They don't watch much TV, preferring to read books instead.

Fortunately they are all school age now, so I go to work all day instead of hanging out at toddler groups talking about this kind of thing. Although MN is a good outlet for it...

ChristinaEliopolis - well yes I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Our children go to private school, DS1 has a scholarship, they will learn musical instruments and sing in a cathedral choir, play rugby/cricket, we don't let them eat McDonalds, grow veg in the garden, there are 35 lunch after school clubs including archery, they can row at Henley Regatta when they get older, they will do Duke of Edinburgh ...... etc, etc. Plenty of people would have a go at me for all of that. No doubt.

BUT!

We still look on bemused at some of the completely bonkers 'loud parenting' paranoid child care hysteria that goes on and most especially in London. It isn't to do with being middle class - its about being secure in your own decisions. Some of the most out of control children I know have parents who read every parenting book on the planet did BLW with heuristically shaped vegetables, will BF until they matriculate, Steiner/Montesorri, 100% organic, low carbon, Fairtrade and positive parented to within an inch of their lives. What the children didn't get was a parent that gave them the love, care and security to grow into decent people.

I don't criticise anyone for doing any of the things I listed but its more than 'techniques' its about a sensible positive attitude to parenting.

LeQueen* - nodding at every one of your comments ... which may be cause for concern. Totally agree with you, that a lot of this is driven by fear. Sometimes, I just want to tell some of our friends to .....relaaaaaax!

I know a lot of very annoying loud parents (some from 'Baby Massage' class - go on, you know you want to kick me) and they can be pesky, with their evangelical waffling on breast feeding and elimination training, which I gather is what my Granny used and why she insisted my mother was clean and dry at six months

I just find them quite harmless really. They find me over-strict, what with my emphasis on manners an' all, and a bit lighthearted about some things that they hold dear, bless their little hearts.

I have one foot in each camp really.

Oh, as an aside, LeQ, it isn't unusual for adult children to discuss their career with their mum. Seriously, one day your daughters might mention their salary to you. Be prepared.

Beta I agree that some parents should learn to relax DH is currently insisting that the children have one day free from next term as they are very tired at the moment

Portofino, oh thank you. Like a more sophisticated 'my pc'. log on anyway, to access anyhting.

It is at it's worst with babies, because the baby can't answer back and the mother has carte blanche to do whatever they like. It is quite noticeable that the mother's who are worst in the supermarket are those that do all the talking, probably the DC has switched off being quite used to not getting in a word edgeways!
It gets far less over the years when mothers, find that they can't keep it up, either the DC isn't responding in the right way, they can't match up to expectations, they have more DCs, the mother goes back to work or she finds that the unassuming mother who didn't take her advice about 'what babies need' and who wasn't remotely interested in 'who sat up first' and left them free to do their own thing actually has a lovely DC who is doing very well in all areas!

I hate to burst anyone's bubble but all the research in developmental psychology so far shows that as long as a parent does a few important things - cuddles their children and shows them love, talks to them, gives them some form of education - as well as the basic caretaking, then the outcome for any child will be just about exactly the same as if that parent spent a ton of time and money on private education, classes, expensive toys etc. Surprisingly research has found that differences in parenting create between 0% and 2% in the variance in outcomes for adults. All the other variance comes from genetics, random events such as illness and peer influence. So, shockingly, twins raised in completely different environments will be much much more alike than non-identical siblings raised in the same house (barring extreme circumstances such as abuse). So parents who think going the extra mile really made a huge difference in the basic fabric of their adult children are somewhat deluding themselves.

However, providing children with a full childhood where they go to a good school and have plenty of activities will give them lovely memories and perhaps some useful skills that they will appreciate later in life. So it's not pointless by any means. I just toy makers and purveyors of "sensory" and "baby einstein" crap would stop making out that these things actually make any real difference. They just don't.

I just wish

my kids had the Baby Einstein DVDs. We were constantly given them.

The kids LOVED them, they were perfect. Just plonk your baby in front of it and you have 20 minutes to go and, say, have a shower and get dressed.

I loved them

I didn't think they would make my kids intelligent, I doubt anyone does.

They are just very age appropriate and harmless.

I don't think that it helps for people to heap on the guilt either, telling them DCs must have wooden toys and that plastic is toxic etc

Some people do believe it Chandon. Same goes for baby sensory, which I mentioned above. It costs 6 pounds a class, and why do people pay it? Because they think it'll develop their child's something or other. It doesn't seem to occur to them that they could do exactly the same thing at home for free. It's not exactly rocket science.

The baby sensory website claims to "help your baby develop" whatever that means.

I think there is a lot you can do at home to instil a love of learning and curiosity about life though. You can get them into a routine of doing their homework on time and provide a quiet space to study.

Of course starting dance classes at 2.5/3 won't necessarily turn them into a prima ballerina. But doing something active like a martial art or dance helps with co-ordination, balance, fitness, posture and a myriad other things, also that it's important for good health to move your body. But most importantly it should be fun.