to think that the middle-classes suck the very soul out of parenting (and life in generally actually)?

[bejeezus]

Ive been on/reading a few threads- about Unconditional Parenting, Attachment Parenting, Steiner blah blah blah. 99.9% of each of these 'philosophies' is common sense, the other 0.1% is deranged and warped interpretation of what started out as a description of common sense.

I am sick of people researching and 'reading round' subjects, analyzing and LABELLING EVERY activity and aspect of growing kids. People (and animals!) have been doing it since time began.

Is it because middle-classers have all been raised by nannies/ have no parental role-models/ have poles up their asses/ lack imagination/ HAVE no intuition/ have no faith in their abilities/ need to feel superior - WHAT is it??

What is wrong with intuition, spontaneity and getting it wrong? in fact I bet my socks there is some research some-where, that says that those are essential aspects of child-rearing and if you dont embrace them whole-heartedly, your childrens teeth will fall out/ they will loose the ability to speak and be in prison by the age of 25 years and 7 months.

Why am I bothered?;

I said on a Steiner thread in parenting that 'I hate wooden toys and all they stand for'

Then I got to thinking; actually I hate what they now stand for but I DONT hate wooden toys. I love wooden toys; the smell, the feel, the memories. But we used to scavenge the tips for timber/rob neighbours fence posts then get dad/grandad/uncle to help us build go karts/benches/huts with an excess of nail string and glue. Where is the soul and creativity in parents spending a weeks/ a months wage (or even a penny) on some imported sustainably sourced wooden toy fashioned by a stranger or mass produced in a factory? It has no more educational/ developmental value than a brightly coloured plastic toy. It is not more enjoyable for the child. It is more enjoyable for the parents BECAUSE IT LOOKS NICE IN THEIR HOUSE!!

Middle class parents are like the anti-Rastamouse;

'always there to make a good thing bad'

Class War- Bring it!

YADNBU

I feel the same, and it's not just the wooden toys and the labelling every breath as some kind of condition to be overcome, it's the way everyone wears the same fecking clothes and dresses their kids the same way and takes them to the same educational activities and talks bland nothingy chitchat. Individuality and sponteneity have been sucked out of parenthood and childhood and it makes me sad.

Hmm, I agree with quite a bit of the OP and am surprised I do. I supper it's the hypocrisy of pretending you want a roundly developed child not A SATs robot with non material values whilst at the same time saving for Uni fees and dressing them in crocs.

Me, I'm a functional type and a bit lazy. I concentrate on fit for purpose and not much more. That extends to leisure activities too.

Also, increasingly lately i've had the feeling that rather than being distinct individuals bringing up two unique human beings, myself and dh are actually part of a great army of synchronised competitive parents bringing up a great sea of put-upon kids. It makes me feel a bit sick and dizzy really and i don't know how much MN is responsible for this way of viewing things.

One of the mums at my sons school has the number plate "YUMMY1".
It is a state primary in an exceptionally affluent village, all drive tanks, live in truly lovely detached homes and many collect their children early from school to attend horse-riding lessons.
We were aware of our very much lower financial standing when we applied to the school and did have the alternative of a local state school that fitted our "social class".
We opted for the "middle-class" school as the academic results and Ofsted report were so much better than the "working class" school.
This decision seemed to anoy both the working class folk on the estate where we live ("Who do you think you are trying to posh yourselves up?, Isn't our school good enough for you?") and the midlle class parents at the school (Gosh didn't realise they were letting you lot in ?).
We took it all with a pinch of salt, got to know people and found a whole lot of similarities (and some daft parenting ideas) across the board.

rosemaryandthyme - sounds like you're trapped between classes. that's the way i've felt pretty much always and it's exacerbated by having kids, i feel.

Hell LeQueen - you have described my life to a tee

The sad thing is LeQueen that we have all met the type of parent that you describe.

But can't it just be that everyone parents differently, people have different values, a different set of cultural norms. Why is it annoying?

It isn't annoying if they do it quietly. They rarely do.
I think it is insecurity, it means that they have to justify their choices by making them the choice for any concerned parent. e.g. you can't be a good parent if you let your DC have a lurid coloured plastic toy, never mind the fact your DC may love the lurid plastic toy.

Oblomov, cloud computing is where everything is held on data servers somewhere and all you need at home/work/wherever is the functionality to access the network. So eventually we won't need PCs as such, smart phones, tablets or access through the tv will be enough. The software will all live somewhere else. The iTunes or Amazon Kindle store is a good example.

It is annoying when they go on and on about it and then its like dealing with J.witness or salesmen.

I think it is hilarious that people like the OP and Le Queen (and many others inbetween) conjure up this IMAGINARY ENEMY and then set off to shout abuse at them.

like: "Fuck off to the parents of Tarquin and Olivia with your organic carrot sticks, grown on your organic allotment, fdriven to in a 4x4, listening to classical music on your way to violin class blah blah blah.

The stereotypes are so old and tired.

Just for fun, may I just throw it back at you?

Right here goes:

I am PROUD of being middle class. Thank fuck I don't have to be like those large teenage parents with their Kaycey, Laycee and Jayden guzzling on fruitshoots and eating Greg Sausage rolls! Driving their big cars with LOUD music, watching TV all day on their wide screen TVs, wearing clothes from Primark that have been made by 3 year olds in a 4th world country.

Oh stop it now, I am getting bored.

I think being a pretentious middle class parent is probably better than the types of people you get on JK every morning

I know which way I'd rather bring my kids up, violin lessons and kumquats included

Bring it on!

(I went to school with JK types I hasten to add) My dcs are now benefiting from the fact that I aimed a little higher than fruit shoots, endless boozing, fags and greggs pasties

Oh good. Another thread pointing at a particular group of society and mocking. How lovely.

Chandon, I agree that I have never ever met this Loud Insecure All-Organic parent. I think she (and come on, it's a she) is a myth to make middle class parents feel better about not being That middle class parent.

I have been trying to ignore this thread but before my blood pressure gets too high .......

Since when has trying to get the best outcome for your children become something to sneer at? Why is it a bad thing to be ambitious for your children?

I come from a very working class background, as does DH. We have worked very hard to get our very comfortable life here, a life which is extremely middle class, full of music lessons, drama teachers, tennis lessons and horse riding. We live by the sea in a big house, drive nice cars and have lovely holidays. My children have an activity every day. Two of them are at the local village school but will probably go to a good independent school in the next couple of years. They may even, eventually, board (how middle class is that, eh?!)

I am controlling and ambitious (poverty can make you that way) and I also have the added advantage of having two children who are adults, so I can see the results of my handiwork

Despite having a mother who pissed others off by explaining the world to them, they are happy, confident adults. My daughter is 27, has a very responsible position, where she runs a team of seventy people. She is currently in the States, setting up a new office. Last year she earned seventy thousand pounds, plus a good bonus and is on track to improve on that this year.

My son, like his sister, has a good degree, and is working through a year of graduate training with a large company for 'pocket money' and will be a full employee on a great salary by the end of the year.

The leadership skills, the drive, the deferring of pleasure until after the work is done - where did that come from? Not from watching too much television or spending hours in McDonalds or generally pissing around. It came from Souting and playing musical instruments and learning languages and trying things. My oldest son is currently working his way through the D of E Gold award, volunteering, camping and learning a new sport. On top of his training. It is as natural as breathing to him. As it is to my younger children who live the same kind of life.

We had an allotment too

Well indeed, Christina .

And my DD begs me for activities... she adores them.

I said from the beginning that it is nothing to do with class-I am solidly middle class, as are most of my friends-and we don't spend hours agonising over whether a 4 month old responds better to a duck face or a lion face!

You need to leave class out of it (it just happens to be women who had a good job, who then throw their whole expertise into the 'project' of motherhood-or women who have never had a good job who have suddenly found their reason for being).

It is insecurity-they don't have a line manager or professional assessments to give them feed back-only the DC and so if the DC has a fully organic diet or can count to 10 in Mandarin etc they are doing a good job.
They know this by comparing with other DCs-hence the competitive mummy.
If you have never met the Loud Insecure All-Organic parent Tortortoise you are using different supermarkets to me. There is nothing wrong with using the supermarket experience, I used to get them to put 5 carrots in a bag etc-the difference is that no one would have heard and I wasn't giving the whole supermarket my views on air miles!

I find LeQueen's examples instantly recognisable-and funny enough for her to write a book!

Since when has trying to get the best outcome for your children become something to sneer at? Why is it a bad thing to be ambitious for your children?

No one is sneering at this -I do the same. It is the way of doing it that people are sneering about.

Oh, exotic fruits I agree that some parents are more showy-offy than others. But, given that discussing where your fruit and veg comes from and counting carrots into a bag, whether quietly or loudly, has got to be better for your child's development than, for instance, discussing a reality show or Being Human (both of which were being discussed by a mother and her child in the Y2 line this morning - Being Human, ffs!!!!!!) I struggle to see the problem for other adults.

Portofino - slight hijack but fully agree with you on 'The Cloud'. I've just been listening to a very senior manager from a US media/TV company talking about their move into 'The Cloud'.

I tend to be a slightly late adopter on technology but for the first time today I was actually convinced about 'The Cloud'. It is the future. Absolutely clear it will replace cable TV, satelitte, home PC, CD, Blue Ray, video on demand, and a whole host of other media devices and services. Me and DW are discussing our technology communication strategy for our house and our DSs are part of that. Me and DW spend all day on the internet and our children will grow up in a hyper connected world where people will seamlessly move between home, work, leisure and always be connected to the internet.

We just can't ignore it.

North London here.
They do bloody exist, they are everywhere and i recognize all who have been described here.