to ask if I should accept this 'proposal' of marriage?

[MyNameIsStacey]

Namechanger. Non-troll credentials: shit pouffe; blind dates at the penguin enclosure; Box room troll; JudgeFlounce etc. I am going to try to be succinct but don't want to drip feed so bear with me please. There's a lot I could dripfeed about so this going to be really difficult.

So me and x-DP (1 DC almost 2 years old) have been split for about 10 months. He is a secret atheist but his family are Muslim. His dad died when he was 6, his mum is a religious loon. He would never be able to tell his Mum he is not a believer because her view is you are born a Muslim and he fears her reaction would kill or injure her.

On being told he was in a relationship with a white non-Muslim girl - not me his previous GF (mum is also racist - he should be marrying someone from a village from her homeland and despite living here since early 1960s is not integrated and entirely reliant on her small network of friends from home who are in the UK, which is a great source of sadness and difficulty for x-DP) she waited outside his office every evening for 2 weeks and tore at her clothes wailing when he tried to leave work. xDP was made to sleep in her bed with her until he was 13. Nothing sexual but he was effectively made to be her companion in replacement of father. He wet the bed most nights until the point at which he could sleep in his own bed. She is the epitome of an emotionally blackmailing control freak.

When I was pregnant xDP was v afraid of telling her. Once he even got very nasty with me (not physically abusive) by telling me once he told her she would be at my door every day (we didn't/don't live together) once the baby was born and she would demand to do everything and I wouldn't even get to hold the baby and there was nothing he could do about that. At the time I was scared (8 months pregnant and hormonal). In one of our few Relate session as we were parting I pointed out to him he had effectively tried to transfer his fear of her onto me during that outburst. He didn't acknowledge that but I think it struck home.

He told me that his mother would view me as an evil white whore (sounds vindictive but just reality really) and would probably not want to know her GC even if he told her. DC was born, xDP and I split up when DC was 6 months and we have reached a pretty amicable situation where xDP comes to mine straight after work 3x a week to do dinner, bath and bedtime. A few months ago he told me he had finally told his mum about existence of DC. I think she took to her bed and was ill for a bit but she didn't want to know or meet GC. My parents and I breathed a sigh of relief. xDP, not being Muslim in belief, had not applied any pressure for circumcision (and would not have got it) but has asked that DC not be allowed to pork. I have agreed for as long as DC's diet is 'controlled' by us I am happy not to feed him pork. If DC gets to his first school birthday party and scoffs a load of cocktail sausages, it will be his choice and not ours by that point. xDP agreed. DC has a registered Islamic name on BC which also has an Old Testament equivalent and is called both. DC has both our surnames to reflect both heritages. Because neither of us is religious DC won't be actively participating in any religion unless he grows to want to, happy for him to visit churches/mosques/do assembly/do 'Christmas'/ do 'Eid' all as cultural experiences with religious background but I'm afraid if he asks what it's all about I would say well some people believe this and because of that we all get a nice holiday off work. xDP is up for that.

So we're pootling along ok. I don't dislike xDP. I think he is a person trapped by his background and circumstance and while I think he is a coward for how he cannot deal with his mother (and it is a huge part of why we split) I would never want to be the reason why someone was excluded from their family, unless that was their choice. So.....skip to the end.

xDP dropped the bombshell tonight that his mother has flown in a friend from home, and this friend (who she takes all her advice from - it's a bit of a freaky Rasputin set-up where this women is believed to have religious visions and xDP's M hangs on her every word) has declare me and xDP must get married to legitimise DC in eyes of Islam. It would not be an officially legal marriage in eyes of law - more like in mum's living room with an Imam. His M is Shi'a. xDP said tonight he was 'passing this information on'. I said what was I supposed to think of that? What if I wanted to marry a Muslim in the future? He says it is just a religious ceremony to please his Mum and will enable his Mum to meet our DC and include him in her family. When we were in love xDP was adamant (as was I) that in telling his mum we were together I would not have to convert.

AIBU to refuse to do this even if it means his mum will not acknowledge our DC? Should I get 'married' to give DC a chance of relationship with grandmother?

Also a plea for advice from any Muslims out there as to what this 'marriage' is and means? (ps. I am aware that xDP's Mum is painted in an awful light - just to avoid the BNP contingent piling in, I do not see her as representative of any other Muslims I know of which there are many)

I think toodle is talking about black magic and dark stuff like that. I have a Shi'ite friend and although quite sane normally once in a way she mentions these things and having been "cursed" by someone's black magic etc. Haven't you heard enough OP, just stay away!

thederkinsdame Who do I raise this with though? I randomly phone up Social Services and report my son as being in danger from his paternal grandmother? Who do I phone?

This morning I have asked my very good (and Muslim) solicitor I have been using for employment claim against work for a recommendation for a good family law solicitor with Shariah experience so am waiting to hear back. I think getting a PSO in place re circumcision and no taking abroad would be a good first step in protecting us. I am hoping that sends her a strong enough message to not fuck with me over this.

Megapixels Ahhhhh...yes...certain things are flooding back now. xDP would arrive with a coin tied into a piece of material which his M would tie around his upper arm if he had told her he was travelling (would be coming to see me but lying to her that he was away on business) - and also there's a keyring thing he left in the car which has lots of those little ceramic evil eye things on it. Oh god don't - you've done your job well MN. I am fucking shitting myself now. Have not slept for more than 5 hours since I posted this and don't even want to have to see him tonight when he sees our DS but obviously am too fucking terrified to leave him alone, even in my flat, with him now. Why would he do this to us? Why would he let her do this to us? All the shit he said to me when I was pregnant is going to come true isn't it?

Do you have a health visitor? If so, discuss this with her. She will hopefully take it seriously, and give advice with regard to social services. Your GP is another person you could talk to, again from the point of view of 'safeguarding' your child, which most health professionals are pretty clued up on. However, you could also phone your local SS and ask to speak to the duty officer.

Just don't. However, it sounds like xDP and you have sorted out access reasonably. It would be worth formalising it though. Can't do any harm. I really can't see how this sham wedding benefits you or DS. I would also be suspicious that if DS were to spend any time with xDP's mother, that she would try to poison him against you or worse. I certainly would not leave either of them unattended with your DS. I'd be paranoid that she would try to persuade xDP to take him away somewhere. Sorry, really not suggesting that's what would happen, I really am rather paranoid and think the worst of people!
I was in a very very very diluted version of the same thing. I mean very diluted. (DH and I from different strands of the same religion). We very reluctantly agreed to a sham wedding (in addition to the real one) at his father's demand "request". It was the start of many attempts to bully persuade us to do things we didn't want to.

I'd say HV, or failing that I would speak to solicitor, or Women's Aid. I know they mainly deal with DV but they may be able to help you with advice/point you in the right direction. Please don't go along with this, and as I said previously, you only have ex's word that it is his mother's wishes. How do you KNOW that it isn't something he wants so he can gain custody of your DS, for example?

a coin tied into a piece of material which his M would tie around his upper arm if he had told her he was travelling

Just to put this in proportion ..... is this any more sinister than giving someone a St Christopher to wear? Sounds like the same sort of harmless custom (some might say superstition)

Just remember that the magic isn't real; it in itself cannot harm you because it is nothing but woo. It cannot make you do anything you don't want to do, and it doesn't give your xDP or his mother any more power over you than they already have - which is limited. The law is on your side

And talk to your solicitor as soon as you possibly can.

As a girl who's mother married into an Islamic family and the child of such a situation, I would advise you not to.

It will be the beginning of all sorts of issues as you become dragged into his community. It is not JUST a ceremony, you will be married in his faith and seen as married by his community. If you choose to marry a Muslim in the future, you will have to seek out a divorce in Sharia law first.

Your child will become almost like property in his mothers eyes as her legitimate grandchild and she will indeed place heavy pressure on you and expect more influence in the way your child is raised.

I am not saying your ex would do this, but I don't think you know his family enough and they could try taking your child away. If they took your child to an Islamic country, you would find it near impossible to get your child back.

Actually, I would supervise all visits if his family is like this.

There are so many more issues that would arrise out of this.

Just as a disclaimer I would like to say that not all Islamic families are like this, only messed up ones like your ex belongs to. My family would not concieve of doing something like this.

I wouldn't worry too much about the coin and the evil eye things. As Patricia says - much like a St Cristopher etc.

I think only you know how rational your X is. Can you sit down and have a discussion with him about all this?

I am sorry you are now feeling so scared. Get the legal stuff done to protect your DS. If your X is as OK as you think it shouldn't be a problem. Esp if you can explain that it is not HIM you are worried about but his mother. Would his brother be a good person to involve in the discussion? Or even just have a chat to yourself?

Bless you, Stacey. No wonder you are feeling scared and rather overwhelmed - this is a lot to take on board - and what mother wouldn't be feeling terrified in your shoes?

I actually think you are being really sensible and calm about this, trying to be fair to everybody and taking rational steps to protect yourself and your son. Talking to a family law solicitor with experience of Shariah law sounds like a really, really good idea. In the meantime, you are being very wise to supervise all access, just in case.

If you are very seriously worried (and you sound it now), perhaps beanlet is right and it might be worth talking to the police even at this stage. I certainly don't think they would be dismissive of your concerns. Also, the police are able to get Social Services moving far more quickly than GPs and HVs can.

Hope you get some sleep tonight... and that you are able to relax a bit soon. If you stay this wonderfully strong (and do not go through with the 'marriage') then it could be argued that you and your son are probably no more at risk this week than you were a few days ago - AND it does sound like you are now doing everything you can to make the situation safe. Well done!

Can't type much now, but is there a local unit/officer dealing with forced marriages?

Obviously yours would not be a forced marriage but they might have some useful light to shed upon it.

OP my ex DP is Muslim and has a wonderful family of lovely brothers and strong feisty SILs. That is until MIL left her village where her DC must have put the bunting out every year on her annual tour to her DCs. She lived 3 days away on a bus but even that wasn't far enough. She formally agreed to us marrying, then slowly started putting more and more demands in. I was happy to go along with some of it out of respect for her, but nothing was enough. It was unlikely I would be able to give her a GC so she was on a mission to to oust me.

This ended with her suggesting the only way was for him to get married to someone else first, have kids and take me as a second wife . She already had 11 GC but wanted his children as he was the 'special son'. Of course exDP dismissed her idea but I will never forget how he went ashen on the phone on hearing it. He was himself loosely religious and respected his Mum. He was a lovely, lovely man, generally a very strong character but powerless against her, as was everyone in the family.

What ended it for me was seeing the way she reacted to a photo of my own DS from a previous relationship . I had to make sure he was never, ever going to be put second. That was my wake up call. I was the love of his life, when I left, exDP had a breakdown which lasted over a year.

The reason I mention this is that you think your ex would not let anything harm you or your DS. My MIL was a bigot 'from the village', but -a manipulative disrespectful cow sane, lived several hundred miles away, had another 6 sons. multiple GC and still managed to force her way and exDP still agreed to it. Yours is a fruit loop, lives close by, has only one other son and a GD she has already alienated. She has also made her feelings clear and you already know she will stop at nothing to get what she wants.

Oh, please don't be terrified! Caution is definitely necessary, but outright panic and sleeplessness, no.

Look, your ex-partner's mother has absolutely no legal avenues, and socially speaking, a very loose connection to you and your child. You're not even a daughter-in-law to her, which not only limits her potential rights, but seems to make her feel it is her moral duty to reject your son! Plus, "My son's ex-girlfriend doesn't let me see their baby" doesn't have the emotional power of "my DIL won't let me see my grandson".

Simply do not engage with her. Definitely do not try to encourage her to become attached to your little boy by initiating meetings at neutral locations, or similar.

All she has, is the ability to emotionally blackmail her son, your ex. And to put a positive spin on it all, he doesn't always do what he's told by her, does he? In the past, he's carried on dating outside his race and religion, despite 14 days of public humiliation outside his workplace.

OP, I feel for you and am glad you are looking into various ways to protect your DS from this woman. Never let her take your DS outside the UK.

I remember reading on an unrelated thread several months ago that it wasn't enough to get a passport and hide it. People are legitimately allowed to have two UK passports. It was suggested on that thread that you also had to inform the Passport Office to not issue a second passport due to the flight risk. Ask them about preventing a second passport being issued for a child.

Cetainly never ever let your xDP have the information about you that he or his mother would need to apply for a second passport for your DS without your knowledge. Keep your DS's birth certificate safe too.

Just posting to support the majority view. DO NOT DO IT. Keep your precious child away from this horrible woman. You are intelligent and balanced, and you know the right thing to do yourself. You now have more information to make that decision in finality. LDN Mummy knows what she is talking about.

I'd just like to post again, referring to your ex's fears that his mother would come around everyday and take over the baby.

I entirely understand why he felt like that. I used to have fears like that. But he's not powerless, and nor was I. More importantly, nor are you. There were times pre-children when I felt like I could do nothing, in large part because I felt so awful at the idea of hurting her feelings. You have no such conditioning.

She turns up at your door? You don't let her in and if necessary, you call the police! I've done it myself. It was very difficult, but I did it some years ago. The police were happy to take her away, even though she had an actual blood relationship to me. She didn't turn up again!

I expect the idea of calling the police on his own mother is utterly unthinkable to him, (it took my husband years to get past my "but I couldn't do THAT!"), but your house is YOUR house not his.

According to DirectGov, you'd need a court order to prevent your xDP from getting a passport for your DS. I'd still ask about second passports.

Link

(Scroll down to the section on how the Passport Office can help prevent child abduction)

OP I should add that my exDP Mother would have used any trick. This wasn't about being Muslim as such at all, she just used selected bits of it and guilt to get what she wanted.

It sounds strange that your DS could have two UK passports. With exception of passport being reported as lost/stolen, etc. But you'd never know - so check it out!

However, it is certainly possible that he could have both a UK and Pakistan passport. My DDs are dual citizens, and have passports from two different counties (where they were born, and where they are now living, which is nationality of DH and I).

Can you check that your involvement/permission is required for a passport from Pakistan?

Whilst I understand the concern and think there's lots of really helpful advice here, imho the general air paranoia on here is getting a little out of control, y'all are going to give the woman a nervous breakdown.

OP - you're in control. You seem to have worked well with your ex on childcare in the past, he is a sane british citizen (albeit with a crazypants mum) just because he made the dodgy decision to bring an offer of sham marriage to you doesn't mean he's about to run off with anyone. Look, we don't know him, you do. Certainly protect yourself, and it's great that MNers are providing you with the info about this, but don't live your life in fear and paranoia because some people are the internet have you wound up to the nines. Take a deep breath, take a few precuationary measures, formalise your arrangements with the ex (should you feel it neccessary) and calm down. No-one's taking your son anywhere, ok?

Hot tea?

Thanks for even more info and replies. My solicitor has recommended a family law solicitor with Shariah experience and I am going to make appt to see them asap.

In the meantime have had text exchange with xDP and it just gets weirder. I am probably going to have to get this thread deleted because of too much identifying info but for now....

He cancelled tonight because of work and suggested tomorrow. I said:

"Fine for tomorrow - my sol has recommended a fam law sol with shariah specialisation but she (emp lawyer) is Shia and was v concerned about what was being suggested - I thought we were getting along really well and had been for a while and now this! Really cant believe you are going to let your mother fuck this all up am now terrified she is going to get him circumcised behind our backs - I know you think there is nothing you can do against your mum to protect our son but the law says otherwise but it's going to make everything shit between us getting sol involved but don't know how to protect him. I would have to lie and and pretend I wasn not atheist - sol said not religious at all shahada would be a lie no imam or scholar would advise to lie! The sooner Aunty F goes the better - you may want to dance to her tune - don't want (DS) and I to be forced to sorry"

He said:

"No one's getting circumcised - i just see it as a meaningless ritual which would open up (DS) to the rest of his family. I wouldnt allow (DS) to come to harm - surprised you would think that TBH"

Why do you think that's weird? Have you mentioned any of the law stuff to him other than today?

I think you need to TALK to him rather than text. You will be able to judge much more from talking face to face.

His family should want to see the child whatever.... Really. They dont deserve to have your son in their lives, with this attitude. Sorry.

Sorry there's more he said/she said to come. I want to get it all out so I can digest. You ARE all helping so much - I know I am getting freaked out but I did say at the beginning that (a) I needed to think things through; and (b) I needed a bit of kicking. Am a bit calmer now too.

So more texts - I replied to above:

1. "Not meaningless under shariah law at all. Your bro has seen DS and he did not need me to lie for him to be able to do that? Would (bro's wife) and (bro's DD's x-gf) have to make me marry you to see him? As a child DS is born without zina and should be treated as such - I have only been forced to think you would not protect him because you are entertainig this ridiculous and frankly lunatic suggestion of Aunty F's - before your request I would not have doubted you - now I fear I would be naive not to - it has made me think v differently - are you really going to let M and Aunty F fuck this up for us. It is DS and you and me that count in this and on one else. If my parents were trying to force you marry me before they could have a relationship with DS I am guessing you would not agree!"

1. His reply: " No one's forcing you to do anything. I conveyed the message, you said no. I'll see if there are other avenues...the key question I need you to answer is whether you want DS to ever meet and have an ongoing relationship with M?"

1. My reply: "All that stuff you threatened me with when I was pregnant is going to come true how she would arrive at my doorn and take over and I wouldnt be able to hold my own baby and you said then there was nothing you could to prevent her and now I believe you"

1. His reply: " If thats what she wanted to do, shed have done it already....don't think that was an accurate prediction tbh"

1. My reply: "But it is still true that had she done that you think you would have been unable to stop her so how can I trust you to stop her from circumcising him or abducting him? You are telling me you are powerless against her - that what M wants M gets and I now believe you"

1. His reply: "It's difficult to have a conversation with you when you're like this? I'm sorry if Ive said anything to frighten you. Perhaps we can discuss at some future date?"

1. My reply: "You meant to frighten me - well done - goal accomplished. I havent slept for more than 5 hours since you told me of the loon troop's fabulous idea they'd cooked up. Jeez and now you're behaving like I am the one a loaf short of a picnic in all of this! Would be hilarious if not so sick! But yes I appreciate you are busy at work and text is not best way to discuss this another time - on a lighter note (told him about some food that he'd found DS really liked was still a big hit)"

10. His reply: "Seriously did not mean to frighten you. Honestly didnt see it as that big a deal, for quite a lot of upside for DS. He would be shown a lot of love and affection - Id never let anything bad happen to him, nor would M"

11. LAST ONE! My repl: " She has emotionally abused both her sons to the point of them being so terrified of her they have both spent their entire lives lying to her because they fear either her wrath or her rejection - I have never worked out which. I would be forcing DS to live a lie in order to carry on this charade of appeasement for 'love'? The majority of all you have told me about her paints a picture of someone who despises white non-muslims (50% of DS) and would call me an evil white whore (am sure DS will love to hear that about his own mother as he grows up) and lives a v sad bitter and isolated life because of her narrowmindedness which frustrates you. Now she is suddenly a loving person who will bring nothing but additional love into our son's life - which do I believe? (finishes with arrangements about whether he wants to see DS on Father's Day)

And breathe. Sorry for putting it all up here. He is a past master at twisting arguments and prides himself on being able to win any argument. I feel like I am fighting for my life here (or rather DS's) so I need to have it all out anf then if I am really being a loon or unreasonable I can hear it independently.