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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to ask if I should accept this 'proposal' of marriage?

286 replies

MyNameIsStacey · 14/06/2011 00:32

Namechanger. Non-troll credentials: shit pouffe; blind dates at the penguin enclosure; Box room troll; JudgeFlounce etc. I am going to try to be succinct but don't want to drip feed so bear with me please. There's a lot I could dripfeed about so this going to be really difficult.

So me and x-DP (1 DC almost 2 years old) have been split for about 10 months. He is a secret atheist but his family are Muslim. His dad died when he was 6, his mum is a religious loon. He would never be able to tell his Mum he is not a believer because her view is you are born a Muslim and he fears her reaction would kill or injure her.

On being told he was in a relationship with a white non-Muslim girl - not me his previous GF (mum is also racist - he should be marrying someone from a village from her homeland and despite living here since early 1960s is not integrated and entirely reliant on her small network of friends from home who are in the UK, which is a great source of sadness and difficulty for x-DP) she waited outside his office every evening for 2 weeks and tore at her clothes wailing when he tried to leave work. xDP was made to sleep in her bed with her until he was 13. Nothing sexual but he was effectively made to be her companion in replacement of father. He wet the bed most nights until the point at which he could sleep in his own bed. She is the epitome of an emotionally blackmailing control freak.

When I was pregnant xDP was v afraid of telling her. Once he even got very nasty with me (not physically abusive) by telling me once he told her she would be at my door every day (we didn't/don't live together) once the baby was born and she would demand to do everything and I wouldn't even get to hold the baby and there was nothing he could do about that. At the time I was scared (8 months pregnant and hormonal). In one of our few Relate session as we were parting I pointed out to him he had effectively tried to transfer his fear of her onto me during that outburst. He didn't acknowledge that but I think it struck home.

He told me that his mother would view me as an evil white whore (sounds vindictive but just reality really) and would probably not want to know her GC even if he told her. DC was born, xDP and I split up when DC was 6 months and we have reached a pretty amicable situation where xDP comes to mine straight after work 3x a week to do dinner, bath and bedtime. A few months ago he told me he had finally told his mum about existence of DC. I think she took to her bed and was ill for a bit but she didn't want to know or meet GC. My parents and I breathed a sigh of relief. xDP, not being Muslim in belief, had not applied any pressure for circumcision (and would not have got it) but has asked that DC not be allowed to pork. I have agreed for as long as DC's diet is 'controlled' by us I am happy not to feed him pork. If DC gets to his first school birthday party and scoffs a load of cocktail sausages, it will be his choice and not ours by that point. xDP agreed. DC has a registered Islamic name on BC which also has an Old Testament equivalent and is called both. DC has both our surnames to reflect both heritages. Because neither of us is religious DC won't be actively participating in any religion unless he grows to want to, happy for him to visit churches/mosques/do assembly/do 'Christmas'/ do 'Eid' all as cultural experiences with religious background but I'm afraid if he asks what it's all about I would say well some people believe this and because of that we all get a nice holiday off work. xDP is up for that.

So we're pootling along ok. I don't dislike xDP. I think he is a person trapped by his background and circumstance and while I think he is a coward for how he cannot deal with his mother (and it is a huge part of why we split) I would never want to be the reason why someone was excluded from their family, unless that was their choice. So.....skip to the end.

xDP dropped the bombshell tonight that his mother has flown in a friend from home, and this friend (who she takes all her advice from - it's a bit of a freaky Rasputin set-up where this women is believed to have religious visions and xDP's M hangs on her every word) has declare me and xDP must get married to legitimise DC in eyes of Islam. It would not be an officially legal marriage in eyes of law - more like in mum's living room with an Imam. His M is Shi'a. xDP said tonight he was 'passing this information on'. I said what was I supposed to think of that? What if I wanted to marry a Muslim in the future? He says it is just a religious ceremony to please his Mum and will enable his Mum to meet our DC and include him in her family. When we were in love xDP was adamant (as was I) that in telling his mum we were together I would not have to convert.

AIBU to refuse to do this even if it means his mum will not acknowledge our DC? Should I get 'married' to give DC a chance of relationship with grandmother?

Also a plea for advice from any Muslims out there as to what this 'marriage' is and means? (ps. I am aware that xDP's Mum is painted in an awful light - just to avoid the BNP contingent piling in, I do not see her as representative of any other Muslims I know of which there are many)

OP posts:
Allinabinbag · 14/06/2011 14:23

I think you have heard from several Muslims on this thread that such a marriage would be a sham anyway and not desired by Allah. I have a MIL from a different culture, but similiarly different in terms of culture and religion, I had to prevent her getting my daughter's ears pierced by shouting no, no no so many times at her, she thought she was doing me a favour by taking care of it (!)

I was asked by my husband to marry in their faith, but luckily as in this case, I am not confirmed/christened or Jewish or Muslim, so could not be included in the religious wedding ceremony (hooray!!!) Atheists are not allowed to marry using these ceremonies, so this gave me a nice let out, it wasn't personal but just not allowed by their own religious laws. I suggest you use the same reason, you are an atheist and understand that this is not allowed. Full stop.

Pass this message on through your spineless X, then make sure your children are secure legally, by getting parental responsibility etc. Then you can carry on pretending this MIL doesn't exist.

I don't know why you feel you have to apologise and be liberal about it: the rule in our house is that it is our way or the highway really, with regard to parenting. We decide what is best for our child.

Allinabinbag · 14/06/2011 14:26

I meant to add I don't think you need be culturally insensitive, though. We celebrate all the major festivals and take part in ceremonies as we please, as two parents who make decision together. His mother or indeed anyone else just doesn't get to decide that stuff!

TandB · 14/06/2011 14:33

I don't really understand your need to hear from a muslim that this woman's request is not compatible with her religion.

What if someone posts and says 'actually she might be very religious and coming at it from that direction'? Does that mean that you will consider the marriage more favourably?

She can be as religious as she likes - she is still the same person. A person's religious beliefs are part of their character just like all other beliefs and attitudes. You can't separate "abusive, unreasonable mother" from "religious zealot mother'.

If this marriage is a bad idea (and it is) then it is a bad idea whether or not the mother has a genuine religious motivation for wanting it to take place. Even if every muslim poster on this thread had said "yes, this is important to Islam and it will offend her religious sensibilities if you don't marry her son", how would that be relevant to your decision about whether this marriage is appropriate for you and your child?

BeeMyBaby · 14/06/2011 14:46

I'm sure this has already been said - but go through with it and demand a massive doury - you can demand however much you want (I think it can be quite common to demand £20k). Until he gives you the money, the marriage is not legal in Islam (or so I have been led to believe), then it is your xDP's fault.

Stropzilla · 14/06/2011 14:57

2 words: HELL NO. You're not denying your DC a relationship with her, she's doing that all by herself. No way would I want her involved with my children, and if their dad wants to pander to her, he can do so all he likes without their participation. And I would never allow him contact with DC without me present, in a neutral space. M not allowed contact at all. Ever. She comes, leave with DC. I'd even go so far as to take it to court to prevent contact if that's what it took.

I'm sorry you're going through this, you sound like a lovely person who wants everyone to be happy and have a good relationship, but not everyone is worthy of your respect and trust.

I'm afraid I have nothing else to offer, DH was abused as a child and I vehemenantly despise some of his family for what they did, and have placed conditions on their seeing my child. Nothing like yours tho, but I do empathise. Please be strong for the sake of your gorgeous DC.

megapixels · 14/06/2011 14:59

Another Muslim here. Don't do it. The whole situation sounds totally wrong. The "child out of wedlock" ship has already sailed, marrying now is not going to change things in the eyes of religion, the M wants you to do it for social reasons. So that she can accept your son without her bubble of friends looking down on her. Be warned that nothing about you has changed for her, you are still the woman who bore an illegitimate child and she is not likely to forget it.

My main advice is be true to yourself and who you are. You are not a Muslim, so don't have an Islamic marriage ceremony. You do not love your ex, so don't get married to him. And it is not your job to put the world right for his mother, so don't do anything against your principles to please her. If you marry him what happens down the line when you remarry (I assume you are not going to continue single forever) and start your own family, with non-Muslim siblings for your son etc.? I don't think that would go down well and then a tug-of-war could start. At that point I am sure your ex would be on the side of his M, not you.

Also, I would say your ex's actions sound questionable to me. Sorry, but tell him to grow a spine and don't listen to his resisting an arranged marriage bullshit. He's not a 13 year old girl in Rajasthan, what is his mother going to do? Beat him up, forcibly marry him off and allow the bride to rape him on his wedding night? Hmm

megapixels · 14/06/2011 15:00

Oh I don't know about the temporary marriage thing (WTF!), but maybe because I am sunni.

WhereYouLeftIt · 14/06/2011 15:16

Just adding my tuppenceworth to the fortune already amassed - do not open the most hairline of cracks into your life to this woman. And whilst I might feel very sorry for your ex, you know that you cannot trust him to protect your son from her, so it all falls to you. Do nothing, sign nothing, fill in no forms that allow any connection between you&DS and Ex&M. Others have mentioned various legal precautions you might consider - in your circumstances I think it would be best to be as defended against any approach she might make as you can be.

"I know it all looks bad in black and white - believe me - reading this through I know that but I still want to believe xDP would put our DS first"

  1. When faced with 'big stuff' I often imagine it in black and white - I find it helpful. Stops me being swept along.
  2. You want to believe - but you know he would buckle under.
Tooodlepip · 14/06/2011 15:25

HI

I am not a shiah Muslim but a Sunni, and I wanted to warn you about something, this kind of marriage is called a mutah marriage a temporary marrige its only practiced by the shiah people, remember that your marriage will be legal in every other Muslim country in the world. Stay away from these people and keep your children away from this, the things that are practised the so called magic etc is very dangerous and harmful.

Also does your child need a grandmother like this do you think that your child wont be her next emotional slave believe me these woman are known for this well known.

She will destroy your son

TotallyLovely · 14/06/2011 15:59

Tooodlepip What's this magic stuff?

catinthehat2 · 14/06/2011 16:04

assumed it was an auto correct for mutah

catinthehat2 · 14/06/2011 16:05

?dunno?

greenbananas · 14/06/2011 16:25

I am so very glad that so many Muslims on this thread have told you that what your ex-P's mother is proposing is against Islam.

I am not Muslim but for many years I lived and worked in a neighbourhood which has many Muslims living in it. I simply cannot imagine any of my lovely friends and colleagues who are Muslims subscribing to this kind of bizzare idea... it has a very bad feel about it. I suspect that your ex-P's family are trying to get your son away from you somehow - please, please take every step you can to protect him and yourself from what might happen in the future - you seem so very sane about this and I do hope it all works out for you.

piprabbit · 14/06/2011 16:28

I think you are misleading yourself with your desire to 'negotiate' in anyway with your ex-partner's mother. You seem to feel it is your role to find a way to reconcile her to your DS's birth outside marriage, and to your decision not to enter some form of marriage agreement with your ex.

It is not your role, you are a mother and a single parent. Your role is to protect and nurture your DS.

The only person who can try and resolve things with his mother is your ex-partner. It is his job (should he choose to accept it) to try and deal with his mother's weird ideas. If he can't face up to it, then you shouldn't try and step in. And if he comes up with any more cunning schemes that jeopardise either your DS's future safety or your own legal security, then you have a duty to your DS to say no.

maltravers · 14/06/2011 18:58

I've only read the first and last page of this thread. This is no doubt covered by someone else but if Gm takes the child to a Muslim country I'm guessing your marriage will be seen as binding jeopardising the return of your child. You need to protect your son not your exP who is old enough to look after himself.

Longtalljosie · 14/06/2011 21:56

Just to say - you will not be the one who changed your relationship with you ex by saying no to this. He will be the one who changed it if he doesn't entirely accept that you don't want to do this.

ohyouknow · 14/06/2011 22:01

I read your post last night when know one had answered, i can see you have many replies but i haven't read them.

Only accept his proposal if you fully understand what it may mean and you love him and are willing to enter into a legally binding marriage with him. You describe him as your ex, not your partner. If his mother wants a closed doors muslim marriage she must be prepared to attend an open door non muslim marriage and embrace both sides of the coin. So should you.

Personally, your ex will always want to see your child, marriage or not, if your MIL equivalent doesn't want to know your child because you are not married then i would question their suitability for inclusion in family life.

I wouldn't "marry" for these reasons.

What ever you decide, i wish you well.

garlicbutter · 15/06/2011 01:17

Yeah, I think Toodlepip meant magic. Ex-MIL has imported a prophetess for her purpose; she would only have done this if she believes the woman has magical and binding powers.

This kind of thing is very dangerous in the hands of a nutcase - in her mind, it will give her license to do all kinds of weird shit. Remember, she stood outside XP's office wailing and tearing her clothes for a fortnight just because she didn't like what he was doing - and that was without expensive magical powers!

You seem to be underestimating the severity of the problem, OP. Don't.

MyNameIsStacey · 15/06/2011 02:31

Thank you for all your replies still.

I am researching (mostly on Prohibitive Steps Orders as per KFP's suggestion) and preventing circumcision. I just don't think this is a woman who cares about the law (other than Shariah and even then she is prepared to lie before Allah, or force someone else to). I cannot find what the consequences of a breach are (if she had him circumcised behind my back) and I am scared because Pakistan does not have any reciprocal arrangements if a child is abducted.

She is a nutcase I agree. I will not be getting married in any shape or form, permanent or temporary.

So I am left to ensure xDP only sees his son at my flat in my company, no more infrequent weekend stays for now.

So bascially all this woman has succeeded in doing is terrifying me so much that I no longer trust my xDP to refuse anything she demands, especially with regards to our son. I still can't believe he even passed the message on. Why not just tell his M...er no M, my ex is an atheist so you'd be asking her to lie in front of Allah and to take the Shahada knowing she didn't mean it. I maybe slightly less militant/pronounced in my atheist beliefs than him but he knows I am firm on that and would never convert.

I think I will post in legal and see if there are any recommendations for family solicitors. I think it is time me and xDP got some stuff sorted out properly and legally so our son's current situation and future is secure. I want to know if I can prevent contact with his M in any other way than being present always for contact.

I know it seems weird that I am even engaging in this rubbish but there is something about someone being religious and expecting someone to lie before their deity which really annoys me. It is hypocritical in the extreme and is surely just meaningless - as other Posters have pointed out, if you believe in Allah, then Allah will certainly know that I would be lying so what would be the point? It comes back to how this is all about 'keeping up appearances' and being competitively religious amongst that circle of friends.
(Eric I do not think your situation is the same as mine so hope I haven't offended you btw - if I was in love with my xDP then I am sure I would be thinking differently but that would be my choice - not the choice of someone else forcing me to get married)

Toodlepip Would you mind popping back on and explaining your comment about magic? It's playing on my mind. I know you might have just been referring to the visionary woman that M is following but was there anything further to that reference you made?

Sorry am tired - am rambling - no sleep. Am v angry now too. Incoherently so.

OP posts:
thumbwitch · 15/06/2011 02:36

Anger is good - it motivates you to do stuff. Keep it going until the stuff is done. Your ninja powers have returned - well done! Grin

catinthehat2 · 15/06/2011 08:32

garlicbutter - I am sure you are right. my goodness, this is 2011 Shock

QuintessentialShadow · 15/06/2011 08:40

Seems to me the best thing for you and dc is that you dont go through with any ceremony that allows your exdps mum to have any form of contact with your child. Shock

BeeMyBaby · 15/06/2011 08:47

Re-abuduction - does your son have your second name or your xDP's second name?

beanlet · 15/06/2011 08:58

Not a Muslim, but a pro-Muslim scholar of South Asian Islam here...

Mutah is the name for temporary marriage, which is permitted under Shi'i law but not Sunni; as opposed to nikah which is permanent marriage in both Shi'i and Sunni law.

Either way, in a Muslim country both would give your DP priority rights to your child. The only reason I can see that his mother would be insisting on her son's marriage to a known infidel (in her eyes) would be so she could take control of your son.

The magic ritual stuff with the prophetess just makes the whOle thing more alarming. This woman is unhinged and could do anything. I would actually alert the police even at this stage.

You are also right to be now putting everything on a much more serious legal footing with DP. No matter how reasonable he's been as a dad up until this point, the game has totally changed because he cannot resist his mother. Your job is now to protect your son from this seriously scary woman.

Bon courage.

thederkinsdame · 15/06/2011 10:33

exDP's mother aside, you don't really know what your ex's motives are, do you? Marry you, have the child for access visit, no custody agreement in place.. take him abroad/disappear? Extreme scenario maybe, but you can't predict what will happen.

You are no longer together, but are on good terms, for now. What's more important to you? Being friends with your ex or the safety and well-being of your DS? I think you are risking so much here. Formalise arrangements NOW. Get a solicitor involved, agree access and tell him that there is no way you will be going through any sham marriage.

Loads of people have said you have no way of knowing what his mother is like. He could be playing all relaxed/I'm liberal la la la, but you don't really know what he is thinking and it could be that this is a load of old twaddle. FWIW I would also raise your concerns about his M with police/other agencies and say you believe she is a threat to your child's wellbeing. You need to be strong and protect your child.