to ask if I should accept this 'proposal' of marriage?

[MyNameIsStacey]

Namechanger. Non-troll credentials: shit pouffe; blind dates at the penguin enclosure; Box room troll; JudgeFlounce etc. I am going to try to be succinct but don't want to drip feed so bear with me please. There's a lot I could dripfeed about so this going to be really difficult.

So me and x-DP (1 DC almost 2 years old) have been split for about 10 months. He is a secret atheist but his family are Muslim. His dad died when he was 6, his mum is a religious loon. He would never be able to tell his Mum he is not a believer because her view is you are born a Muslim and he fears her reaction would kill or injure her.

On being told he was in a relationship with a white non-Muslim girl - not me his previous GF (mum is also racist - he should be marrying someone from a village from her homeland and despite living here since early 1960s is not integrated and entirely reliant on her small network of friends from home who are in the UK, which is a great source of sadness and difficulty for x-DP) she waited outside his office every evening for 2 weeks and tore at her clothes wailing when he tried to leave work. xDP was made to sleep in her bed with her until he was 13. Nothing sexual but he was effectively made to be her companion in replacement of father. He wet the bed most nights until the point at which he could sleep in his own bed. She is the epitome of an emotionally blackmailing control freak.

When I was pregnant xDP was v afraid of telling her. Once he even got very nasty with me (not physically abusive) by telling me once he told her she would be at my door every day (we didn't/don't live together) once the baby was born and she would demand to do everything and I wouldn't even get to hold the baby and there was nothing he could do about that. At the time I was scared (8 months pregnant and hormonal). In one of our few Relate session as we were parting I pointed out to him he had effectively tried to transfer his fear of her onto me during that outburst. He didn't acknowledge that but I think it struck home.

He told me that his mother would view me as an evil white whore (sounds vindictive but just reality really) and would probably not want to know her GC even if he told her. DC was born, xDP and I split up when DC was 6 months and we have reached a pretty amicable situation where xDP comes to mine straight after work 3x a week to do dinner, bath and bedtime. A few months ago he told me he had finally told his mum about existence of DC. I think she took to her bed and was ill for a bit but she didn't want to know or meet GC. My parents and I breathed a sigh of relief. xDP, not being Muslim in belief, had not applied any pressure for circumcision (and would not have got it) but has asked that DC not be allowed to pork. I have agreed for as long as DC's diet is 'controlled' by us I am happy not to feed him pork. If DC gets to his first school birthday party and scoffs a load of cocktail sausages, it will be his choice and not ours by that point. xDP agreed. DC has a registered Islamic name on BC which also has an Old Testament equivalent and is called both. DC has both our surnames to reflect both heritages. Because neither of us is religious DC won't be actively participating in any religion unless he grows to want to, happy for him to visit churches/mosques/do assembly/do 'Christmas'/ do 'Eid' all as cultural experiences with religious background but I'm afraid if he asks what it's all about I would say well some people believe this and because of that we all get a nice holiday off work. xDP is up for that.

So we're pootling along ok. I don't dislike xDP. I think he is a person trapped by his background and circumstance and while I think he is a coward for how he cannot deal with his mother (and it is a huge part of why we split) I would never want to be the reason why someone was excluded from their family, unless that was their choice. So.....skip to the end.

xDP dropped the bombshell tonight that his mother has flown in a friend from home, and this friend (who she takes all her advice from - it's a bit of a freaky Rasputin set-up where this women is believed to have religious visions and xDP's M hangs on her every word) has declare me and xDP must get married to legitimise DC in eyes of Islam. It would not be an officially legal marriage in eyes of law - more like in mum's living room with an Imam. His M is Shi'a. xDP said tonight he was 'passing this information on'. I said what was I supposed to think of that? What if I wanted to marry a Muslim in the future? He says it is just a religious ceremony to please his Mum and will enable his Mum to meet our DC and include him in her family. When we were in love xDP was adamant (as was I) that in telling his mum we were together I would not have to convert.

AIBU to refuse to do this even if it means his mum will not acknowledge our DC? Should I get 'married' to give DC a chance of relationship with grandmother?

Also a plea for advice from any Muslims out there as to what this 'marriage' is and means? (ps. I am aware that xDP's Mum is painted in an awful light - just to avoid the BNP contingent piling in, I do not see her as representative of any other Muslims I know of which there are many)

Hold it everyone, this is the point where everyone starts being unpleasant and egging each other on, isn't it? Take a step back.

Quint - I disagree with practically everything you've said. Her texts aren't whiny, only she knows if it's the best way of communicating with him (and if he tends to be defensive but later accepts her argument, it might be a much better way to go) and as far as "forget this man" goes, he is her DS's father and aside from this lapse, has done the right thing by him so far.

I think honeyandsalt's advice is very sensible.

TBJ Not patronising at all, insightful and yes, your insights are not my xDP's but still useful, and calm, measured. Need some of that.

Why do I want to see a lawyer with shariah experience? Two reasons:

(1) English law takes into account Shariah law in situations like this in the family courts. In a case about circumcision an English court agreed that a son could be called Muslim just because father was, even though father was non-practising and suddenly got zealous on birth of son and wanted circumcision despite not attending mosque etc. From advice outside this thread, it is becoming clear that xDP has documented his apostasy, ie renounced being a Muslim, in which case his son cannot be considered a Muslim by default by either English courts or Shariah law. Therefore it is important my xDPs rejection (and continued rejection) of Islam is evidenced. Shariah law has influence here just by virtue of the fact xDP was born Muslim, it does not go away just because I say no to sham marriage. I want the legal agreement about our son to document and evidence our intentions about religion and dual heritages as we had agreed so there is no going back should we ever end up in court.

(2) I want the PSO and any legal correspondence to xDP to come from another Muslim. I want it written down in black and white that the suggested marriage would be invalid for all the reasons already given on the thread. Not only is it a big fat No from me, but also a big fat No from her own sources of authority. I want to ensure there are no other 'avenues' as xDP says to explore, because there are no weasel ways in which I can be converted. I want her to realise that any further pushes/attempts etc at contact or control or manipulation will blow away the facade she has spent her life creating for her circle of friends. I want her to realise that she is risking a lot personally in pushing any further on this.

I think I engage because I am still so desperately sad that my xDP is this fucked up over how his M has emotionally abused and manipulated him all his life. I can't hate him, even for this, but neither can I love him so in a sense I think I am fighting not just for DS to be protected but to 'free' xDP too. Goes against everything I believe, e.g. no one else is responsible for your own happiness but you, no one can 'save' another person in a relationship. I thought I had learnt that the hard way, through being in a LTR relationship with someone who suffered (and still does) from depression and self-esteem issues. In the end I had to walk away (we are still friends - it is so much easier supporting someone like that from a distance). I need to remind myself that this is not about xDP. Is about DS. xDP is a lost cause. Only xDP can 'free' himself (good choice of word TBJ). Need to disengage and accept that.

Morloth I feel guilty that in denying M a relationship with DS, I am making it clear to xDP that his dual life is over and he either gets with Team DS and stands up to M, or he is considered a Muslim who wants his son to be Muslim and we fight on those terms.

Honey Yes. Deep breath. My reasons. Hearing everyone else's reasoning (even my reaction to Izzy's post was telling so helped me realise that the things that touched a nerve are what I am afraid of) whether I agree or not is still helpful but I do agree with what you are saying.

I think I sense a big YABU avalanche coming so may have to get this thread deleted/moved with everyone piling in behind Izzy but need to print it first. Off to Rymans for printer ink!

LTJ Am not sure you're going to hold back the tide but thank you for trying! But don't worry have been here long enough to see Quint's posting style in general so am not too concerned by that comment. And if I'm whiny, well at the moment I think I've got something to whine about and lots of people have a good whine on MN. I have seen whining about a lot less on here and a lot more! Lots of posters have taken my request for a kicking v sensibly and kicked me in a measured, calm, and reassuring way! It's their kicking I am saying "Ow ooh but you're right" to and yes Honey's post was a timely reminder of that.

Technically, hot and cold foods are Unani medicine rather than Ayurveda in this case, but hey. Agree no weirder than homeopathy or acupuncture or Chinese medicine. Nor are evil-eye pendants or talismans any weirder than St Christopher's medals.

The only worrying thing is xDP's M's new-found interest in controlling her grandson via sharia law - and I agree she almost certainly not be bothering if it were a granddaughter. All that is required from OP is a refusal to comply with the marriage, and a refusal to allow unsupervised visits with GM.

And I do think the more - er - straight-talking posts are NOT helpful to an already worried OP. Especially those that are deeply unsympathetic to Islam and cultural difference.

Let's back off, ladies, and give OP a chance to make important decisions calmly and rationally.

Im with GetOrf. I think the religious aspect is largely a red herring.

The point is you cannot reason with an unreasonable person. All you can do is appease them, and the more you appease, the more they will ask for. The only way to deal with an unreasonable person is to decide what you think is best and stick to it - regardless of what that person says. If they give you grief, you have no choice but to cut them off.

Unless the XP is able to stand up to his mother he is unreasonable by default.

'Flight risk' is an acceptable reason to insist on supervised contact BTW I think (anyone legal know more?). I would be contacting social services and getting them on board to insist on supervised contact only for the XP and none whatsoever for the XP's mother.

Oh is it Unani beanlet thanks for that. My grandmother must be turning in her grave, as her father was an Unani physician and she had her own "potions" that he'd taught her that we'd taken as children.

Good luck with everything OP. Everything will work out, Insha Allah.

When you mentioned the need for wills further up the thread, it sounded like you were concentrating on the financial ramifications of your ex failing to make provision for your DS.

Have you put any thought into what would happen if you were hit by a bus, today, tomorrow, in 5 years time? Who would become your DS's carer? As your DS's next of kin would your DS simply be handed to his father (and his family)?

I don't know how these things work - but while you are talking to solicitors you may want to make as many plans as possible to minimise your ex's family's influence over your son now and in the future.

Sorry to be such a cow - I really don't want to scare you further - just to make sure that while you are sorting out your and your DS's legal situation, you factor in the worst too.

Beanlet MN is always an education so thanks for clearing that up!

Quint I realise you said texts were whiny and I read posts. Sorry for that. What I was trying to get across in my texts to xDP is that we are a team

piprabbit Wills not just financial at all but when I have discussed with xDP that is what he has focused on, made a joke about stuff like getting his hands on my Wii. It's all deflection. Will for me is about naming guardians and xDP's involvement (and M's non-involvement) laid out clearly should I get hit by a bus (was almost hit by a cyclist the other day but am not the person who started a thread on that!). Talking about the worst case scenario is not so scary any more. It was yesterday and the day before but today it just feels necessary and nothing more. Having those fears articulated by others has helped with that and for me to face them. This thread is keeping me in the right frame of mind. I can see I am frustrating some posters and they want a more 'guns blazing' approach. I need to consider a 'guns blazing' approach as Plan B. If I go in like that straight off I am going to send xDP scurrying for cover with M. Plan A is 'belts and braces' approach and I can't help but focus on the legalities because one of the worst case scenarios in all of this is court. You're not a cow at all!

Megapixels Insha Allah indeed!

You can't "free" xDP. Only he can do that. His mother is needy and controlling.

He's your ex - why do you think you're a team?

Where is your mother in all this?

I really don't get why you're obsessing about Islam. This is not what it's about.

A needy and controlling woman wants you to put yourself in a position where she will have more influence over your child. You have responsibility to your child to say "no".

So say "no".

Topaz A team in the sense of both of our DS's parents who need to communicate and agree on a number of issues while putting our DS's welfare as paramount. I have already said several times I am going to say no.

If we go to court Shariah law will be involved. Islamic law is involved whether I liked it or not unless I can show xDP is not a Muslim because he has renounced his faith. If I pretend it's not involved I will have a nasty surprise if we get to court when the judge starts to consider what Shariah law says about DS being considered a Muslim before then considering what parental authority xDP has to ensure he is bought up as a Muslim.

Yes but Stacey - if you don't marry him Shariah law has as much relevance to you as it does to me! You are not a Muslim, and your son isn't either! Even if your XP is a muslim! Shariah law is only taken into account in this country with the consent of both parties...

If we go to court Shariah law will be involved. Islamic law is involved whether I liked it or not unless I can show xDP is not a Muslim because he has renounced his faith. If I pretend it's not involved I will have a nasty surprise if we get to court when the judge starts to consider what Shariah law says about DS being considered a Muslim before then considering what parental authority xDP has to ensure he is bought up as a Muslim.

Sorry, what now? How is shariah involved in your life in any way at all? Shariah has no legal basis in this country. Your XP's religion has nothing to do with anything. No court can make you bring your son up in any religion

Sharia law will not be involved if you go to court. A judge will have regard to religious sensitivities and practices but that is quite different from having regard to what Sharia law says about the issue.

In the case I assume you are referring to (which is quite an old case) the court refused the application for an order permitting circumcision against the mother's wishes and made it clear that the father was quite at liberty to teach his son about Islam if he chose to do so, but it went no further than that. There is a slightly more recent case with a similar application which was also refused.

I think you just need to concentrate on taking the appropriate steps to protect yourself and your son legally where you perceive there to be a risk. Sharia law would not appear to be a risk to either of you unless you choose to engage with it by going ahead with this marriage. You don't need a muslim lawyer to tell your ex that you aren't willing to marry him for religious reasons. You can do that yourself. All you need a lawyer for are any issues re: your son's welfare and protection, and for formalising contact/financial arrangements if you choose to do so.

I think you are swinging from one extreme to the other - when you started this thread you were contemplating whether to go ahead with this marriage and you wanted to understand the reasoning behind it. Now you are feeling threatened by Sharia law and feel that you need a lawyer to set your ex straight.

I think you need to have a good think about where the middle ground lies and what steps are really necessary and beneficial.

here here Beanlet

yy stacey. Have PM'd btw.

Isn't it a good idea that the OP sees a lawyer who knows about Sharia law anyway, because then they will be able to tell her that Sharia law is not applicable in the UK courts in her case?
I don't know if you are a legal eagle, Kungfu - you may well be, you certainly sound as though you are - but if the OP sees someone who says the same as you then she will be 100% reassured that it is the case, iyswim.

Oh I certainly wouldn't advise against seeing a lawyer, but I would advise being very, very clear about the issues/concerns that a lawyer needs to address.

It would be very sensible to have some sort of formal agreement regarding contact/finances but these things are generally best approached in a cool, calm way with all the focus being on the relevant issues, rather than being tied up in a package with all sorts of vague concerns and non-legal matters.

A letter saying "My client wishes to formalise contact arrangements. This is what is proposed..." is far better than one saying "These are the contact arrangements we propose and by the way my client wishes me to make it very clear that she has no intention of marrying you".

There are different issues here and I don't think it is helpful to bundle them all up together. The only person who needs to say no to this marriage is the OP - she doesn't need a muslim lawyer to back her up. The issue of contact and any concerns that this situation has triggered is another matter and quite possibly an issue that a lawyer should handle.

I just think the OP has gone very quickly from quite blasé about the whole thing to a blind panic about the power of Sharia law in the UK and is still very tied up with the religious side of things.

Would like to echo what Kungfu said. You've had a shift in your reality and that is a shock to the system. Take your time, if the legal stuff re-assures you, do it. Ignore the gun ho approaches, these are not necessary and as you say are your last resort. Meanwhile you do not even have to answer emotional questions such as 'do you ever want my M in our sons life'. A simple philosophical 'I don't know' will suffice, with no further discussion.

First you need to work out what is best for your DS and YOU. You do have a lot of power here as the unmarried, single parent in the UK. The M actually has none in reality, she has just managed to create this aura of power via her what my elderly mother would call a right carry on drama. In reality she is powerless regarding your choices. This is what she wants to change via the marriage etc. Its so blindingly obvious after the event, so difficult to see when she is creating so much emotional noise and your exP is allowing it.

Get focused, take your time and don't be diverted onto anyone else's agenda.

once it's "official" in her eyes at least perhaps she will feel entitled to interfere help, and who knows how far she will go?

KFP It is that J case (1999) you are referring to. It is the concept of DS being a Muslim because his father is when I know his father has rejected his faith to everyone else but M. I know I'm all over the shop but things are crystallising. When I first posted it was within hours of being told so it was a big shock. xDP's fear of M and his apathy/submissiveness to her is weirdly contagious. He talks about her like she is a force of nature, unstoppable and then tells me I should believe him when he says no harm will come to him with M or him. I know what would happen if we had that conversation in RL following on from the texts. I would get sidelined into defining 'harm' (pedantry and semantics are diversion tactics from him) and so hence why I have now swung to having a legal agreement which puts in place certain things e.g. no circumcision, if DS chooses to eat pork he will but I am happy to undertake that I will never feed it to him (will keep the bacon sandwiches for when he is not around!) that set out our agreements in co-parenting DS. The longer I spend away from him, not talking to him about this but taking time to sort out what is best for DS, the better at the moment but am on limited time.

Not proposing solicitor comments on 'marriage' - not relevant to legal agreement as you have pointed out.

Thumbwitch That's where I am coming from.

Helena I have learnt to say with xDP (not all the time but getting there) "Let me have a think about that" which is almost "I don't know" so yes, agree. He did text me last night saying he was concerned I was upset but finished off with "Nothing needs to change for now" and the "for now" was not comforting. All of this is about how powerless M is in RL - she uses her religious beliefs to create the aura of power. She (or rather Aunty F) believe themselves to be doing Allah's will. Aunty F thinks she is being spoken to in dreams/visions. It's all nuts. I think one of the most surprising things about this thread is that I have not been shouted off as a troll....yet! My RL friend and her husband who are also on MN were taking the piss out of me for my overboard OP in using non-troll credentials but I have considered posting on MN about my situation before, having seen what good advice can be given and had decided not to for fear of being trolled off.

I know posters are incredulous at the fact that I am even considering her religious beliefs as part of this but maybe it is is also rooted in the way I was brought up (Buddhist father, lapsed high church CofE mother, careful tolerance of each other's stance and lots of chat about law, religion and morality as I was growing up). M would probably pop her clogs on seeing the inside of my flat - I collect religious iconography (faux-Byzantine stuff) and despite being atheist and supporting further secularisation of the state I guess I've always been a little bit jealous of those with religion because they get some written moral guidance straight up (whether you believe that guidance is wrong or right). The rest of us have to work it out for ourselves. Am reminded of my dad's hardline liberalism on Intolerance of Intolerance approach though .

Have just spoken to my mum about the 'proposal' and this thread. She's always been very anti-MN (reads the Daily Fail) but she might just be on Gransnet at this rate. Am sure the other other Gransnet posters will be delighted to discuss the latest 'outrage' with her . That is another weight off my mind. I was able to tell her clearly that things were under control, in hand and no marriage and no contact with M and I will be doing all I can to ensure that legally too. She is v careful about how she discusses this with me because she knows I view this as mine and xDP's problem and I don't think dragging them into this will help. My parents are genuinely fond of xDP but I think despair of my wishy-washyness to date as well. I had to get things straight in my head before I had that conversation because while lovely and supportive, my mum can get easily overburdened with other people's stress and worry and suddenly you are supporting her to support you iykwim?

To add a perspective on the religious red herring thing (just read whole thread and it seems Stacey that you are worried about being racist perhaps what with needing reassurance from Muslims??)

To a devout catholic, what your ex-dp has done is just as bad as how you've described it being for your Muslim ex-DP's M - having a child out of wedlock would put you out of communion with the church and (unless you then confessed, penance etc) you would die in sin, go to hell etc. A schoolfriend of mine was disowned by his parents for having a kid with a non-catholic divorcee (I think also Asian and budhist) as he stood by her and the child, and there was no possibility of them ever being married in the eyes of the church and therefore of confession, penance, etc. To his parents he was lost forever.

But if your ex-DP were catholic would you be worrying so much about it? So don't worry about that bit. Agree with whoever it was who said he already knew what the implications were when you got pregnant and it can't be undone. Go with your head.

Sorry Stacey cross-posted and just seen why you are worrying about religion. I still think try not to worry about it! You're being so strong and brave, keep it up

And agree with thumbwitch - you need to set your mind at rest after all the worst case scenarios that have been played out here.

Sarraburd This wasn't a planned pregnancy. Contraceptive patches don't work when they have detached themselves from your skin and attached themselves to your dressing-gown instead. They don't even prevent the proliferation of other smaller dressing-gowns because we now have several of those too . Some of the guilt is from the pregnancy and my refusal to have an abortion trapping him in this nightmare situation where his rejection of his faith/sin is shown clear in the form of our lovely beautiful DS [biased emoticon]. He was all over the shop when I discovered I was pregnant. Immediate reaction was supportive, then denial, then hostile (even badgering me right after 12 week scan to have an abortion), then buying baby things but I made it clear then he could walk right away without a backward glance if he so chose and that even if I had an abortion, it would not make things back to how they were because it would be the end of us because I could not love him after that.

I am not scared of being thought racist (I'm with the Avenue Q song on this - Everyone's a little bit racist) I just hate the shit in the press about Muslims and the thought that people buy into that. I was also a bit scared of some of the racism I have seen on MN rearing up and biting me so I have probably been extra-defensive. That used to be my view in general about media scaremongering, now it's the thought that my DS will be on the sharp end of that so it's not all altruistic woolly liberalism.

Analogy with Catholicism is probably correct - I am concerned xDP will be forced to choose between his family and his son. M is the only way phrasing the situation in that way though, not me. That's what I need to hold fast to.

The woman may not even have thought as far ahead as you have concerning the legal ramifications of it all. She might just be thinking about how to acknowledge him without losing face. It's still a Very Bad Idea, but you may be over-estimating your opponent here.

DEFINITELY, definitely, definitely (no maybes!) get all your contingincy plans sorted out, but don't resign yourself to a huge battle just yet- seems like your ex didn't want his mother near your baby in the past, however powerless he felt about it. You know all this stuff about her awfulness, because he told you. This may just be a phase of "maybe it'll be different!" Which he will snap out of.

Jesus this is SUCH a no brainer.

The woman is a lunatic and if she weren't related to your DS you wouldn't want her to have anything to do with him. The fact she IS related to your DS shouldn't mean a thing, under the circumstances. He is better off without the mad old cow and always will be.

If you want to get back with DS's Dad that's up to you (although I'd advise caution - he's clearly completely under her thumb and whatever he might tell you, she is ALWAYS going to call the shots) but just make it clear to him that his mother will never be involved. Nobody could blame you for not allowing her to be.