to ask if I should accept this 'proposal' of marriage?

[MyNameIsStacey]

Namechanger. Non-troll credentials: shit pouffe; blind dates at the penguin enclosure; Box room troll; JudgeFlounce etc. I am going to try to be succinct but don't want to drip feed so bear with me please. There's a lot I could dripfeed about so this going to be really difficult.

So me and x-DP (1 DC almost 2 years old) have been split for about 10 months. He is a secret atheist but his family are Muslim. His dad died when he was 6, his mum is a religious loon. He would never be able to tell his Mum he is not a believer because her view is you are born a Muslim and he fears her reaction would kill or injure her.

On being told he was in a relationship with a white non-Muslim girl - not me his previous GF (mum is also racist - he should be marrying someone from a village from her homeland and despite living here since early 1960s is not integrated and entirely reliant on her small network of friends from home who are in the UK, which is a great source of sadness and difficulty for x-DP) she waited outside his office every evening for 2 weeks and tore at her clothes wailing when he tried to leave work. xDP was made to sleep in her bed with her until he was 13. Nothing sexual but he was effectively made to be her companion in replacement of father. He wet the bed most nights until the point at which he could sleep in his own bed. She is the epitome of an emotionally blackmailing control freak.

When I was pregnant xDP was v afraid of telling her. Once he even got very nasty with me (not physically abusive) by telling me once he told her she would be at my door every day (we didn't/don't live together) once the baby was born and she would demand to do everything and I wouldn't even get to hold the baby and there was nothing he could do about that. At the time I was scared (8 months pregnant and hormonal). In one of our few Relate session as we were parting I pointed out to him he had effectively tried to transfer his fear of her onto me during that outburst. He didn't acknowledge that but I think it struck home.

He told me that his mother would view me as an evil white whore (sounds vindictive but just reality really) and would probably not want to know her GC even if he told her. DC was born, xDP and I split up when DC was 6 months and we have reached a pretty amicable situation where xDP comes to mine straight after work 3x a week to do dinner, bath and bedtime. A few months ago he told me he had finally told his mum about existence of DC. I think she took to her bed and was ill for a bit but she didn't want to know or meet GC. My parents and I breathed a sigh of relief. xDP, not being Muslim in belief, had not applied any pressure for circumcision (and would not have got it) but has asked that DC not be allowed to pork. I have agreed for as long as DC's diet is 'controlled' by us I am happy not to feed him pork. If DC gets to his first school birthday party and scoffs a load of cocktail sausages, it will be his choice and not ours by that point. xDP agreed. DC has a registered Islamic name on BC which also has an Old Testament equivalent and is called both. DC has both our surnames to reflect both heritages. Because neither of us is religious DC won't be actively participating in any religion unless he grows to want to, happy for him to visit churches/mosques/do assembly/do 'Christmas'/ do 'Eid' all as cultural experiences with religious background but I'm afraid if he asks what it's all about I would say well some people believe this and because of that we all get a nice holiday off work. xDP is up for that.

So we're pootling along ok. I don't dislike xDP. I think he is a person trapped by his background and circumstance and while I think he is a coward for how he cannot deal with his mother (and it is a huge part of why we split) I would never want to be the reason why someone was excluded from their family, unless that was their choice. So.....skip to the end.

xDP dropped the bombshell tonight that his mother has flown in a friend from home, and this friend (who she takes all her advice from - it's a bit of a freaky Rasputin set-up where this women is believed to have religious visions and xDP's M hangs on her every word) has declare me and xDP must get married to legitimise DC in eyes of Islam. It would not be an officially legal marriage in eyes of law - more like in mum's living room with an Imam. His M is Shi'a. xDP said tonight he was 'passing this information on'. I said what was I supposed to think of that? What if I wanted to marry a Muslim in the future? He says it is just a religious ceremony to please his Mum and will enable his Mum to meet our DC and include him in her family. When we were in love xDP was adamant (as was I) that in telling his mum we were together I would not have to convert.

AIBU to refuse to do this even if it means his mum will not acknowledge our DC? Should I get 'married' to give DC a chance of relationship with grandmother?

Also a plea for advice from any Muslims out there as to what this 'marriage' is and means? (ps. I am aware that xDP's Mum is painted in an awful light - just to avoid the BNP contingent piling in, I do not see her as representative of any other Muslims I know of which there are many)

"the key question...is whether you want DS to ever meet and have an ongoing relationship with M"

The answer to which should be "After this little shenannigan, hell no! She's a psychopath!"

And for a bit of perspective - no, you are not a loon. She is.

Oh OP - this is a long thread. I have seen a couple of posts where you have addressed this but I think I still need to ask you:

Are you sure you don't want to marry this guy 'for real'????

If he's been really responsible about keeping up his end of things with your DC which includes spending time at your place...I think maybe this is his way to engage with the idea of getting back together. It's a weird way for sure but I wouldn't rule it out.

And I think if you were really truly 100% cross your heart and hope to die sure you weren't interested in a relationship with him....you would not be contemplating this one whit. You wouldn't be agonising about it so much.

I think you BOTH kind of need to ask what's going on here - you're contemplating doing it 'for your son' and he's contemplating it 'for his mother.'

Where are you two in all this?

Okay I cross posted with your massive post.

One thing I think is also worth considering: I think is more religious than he lets on to you.

HE could be the one going through some sort of epiphany process andt rying to pass this all on to his mum.

I'd be on my guard for that if I were you.

Please follow through on that Sharia lawyer whatever you do and get all the safegaurads you can in place.

AAAAARGH. FFS He's not even been willing to discuss sorting out our wills when I have been worried about that since DS arrived. He had the nightmare of sorting out the probate for one of M's friends who died intestate a few years ago so he knows how awful it is and because we are not married if either of us died (well actually if he died) you can bet our DS would not be provided for in any way shape or form. Would all go back to the family, M or bro and obviously since I am not willing to have a sham Shariah marriage DS would be persona non grata in all of that. Sorting out wills is not a 'meaningless ritual'.

Having said that he did put DS on his private medical cover as did I so that is at least something I suppose. I feel like DS is always going to be begging for crumbs from his family. I suppose I always hoped at some point xDP would wake up and think no more - I might put up with this but I won't make my son live this lie.

What a fucking mess. lessons to be learnt for anyone reading this, seriously.

Thank you for PMs - will reply shortly.

Well, I suggest that you make an appointment with a solicitor to sort out your own will and invite him to come too.

I think that if you show the initiative in the question of wills then he might follow suit.

I also agree with all the advice upthread about formalising contact arrangements and being very careful about passports etc. Could you give your son's passport to your own parents?

He may be incapable of seeing his mother for the lunatic she is. You only have to look at a Stately Homes thread to see how difficult it is to fully acknowledge parental abuse.

With what you said about his intently winning every argument, I wonder if he is a bit of a controller himself? You know he's perfectly happy to deceive those who love him (ref, his mum.) I certainly wouldn't advise wasting your breath on trying to reach a resolution on this one.

Nooo, you don't want DS to have a relationship with that family!!! Their 'love' is far too conditional - weird & threatening conditions, at that.

I'm sorry if you posted this before - why didn't mother simply try to arrange a marriage with her local imam? Because she knows it's 'illegal', perhaps?

See if you can stay cool and practical with XP. Go full steam ahead with your solicitor, and follow the govt advice on passports.

You can do it, and do it well.
Hope you sleep better tonight!

Hi, just read through all the posts (took a while!). Completely agree with everyone and of course you should be protecting your DC with some legal stuff etc.

BUT I would suggest you backtrack on how you talk to xDP about this just to ease the way. After all you said you were happy with your arrangements and making things antagonistic will sour the relationship. It's also highly unlikely that the worst case scenario would happen (kidnap).

I would tell him that absolutely you trust him, he probably hadn't thought it through but although he might think a 'marriage' would be meaningless to you both and UK law, it wouldn't be in Pakistan and would give him legal rights over your DC over there. Naturally it has worried you.

Then say all this has made you think it would be good idea to put some formal arrangements in place, wills, access agreements, etc. You'll let him know when you've talked to a solicitor for some suggestions.

You also have to decide whether you do want to allow the M access and on what terms. If she was willing to meet DC without you doing anything religious, completely on your terms, neutral location (so she doesn't know where you live), would you allow it? It's up to you but I think you need to be clear with xDP whether this is on the table or not, if it is exactly what are your terms.

Probably best in person (mentioning legal stuff especially). HTH

Hey Stacey.

I have PM'd you.

Garlicbutter I have. It is heartbreaking. I am also listening to what TheBigJessie is saying about how she feels about the pull of her mum (TBJ - does the fact that you know all this know and have acknowledged it make you feel better or worse? Was there a lightbulb moment for you?)

Sorry if I am asking you too many questions but I suppose I am always wondering if it is because my xDP doesn't want to admit it or genuinely can't see what unconditional love looks like? I look for it when I see him interact with our DS and I can see he loves him absolutely if that makes sense? And in the way he talks about him and engages with him? I have my moments at getting pissed off with him at house stuff (leaving nappies in the bathroom pisses me off) but he feeds him, plays with him and baths him from 5.30 to 8 pm and it is good contact for DS's age, constant, frequent, regular. It is not Disney-dadding where he turns up with gifts but doesn't put in the time and DS is now getting to the stage where I feel we are on the same page with regard to dealing with tantrums and the like (although I think he should be doing more fun things with him as well as routine which is why weekend contact is also important). I suppose that's one of the reasons why I am getting angry is because I thought we were actually making a good go of being a team for our DS and this is just a massive M shaped spanner, just when I thought she had, true to previous form, decided her GC did not exist.

I have cried a lot tonight. It's like a storm broke and I feel better for it. I feel so much better for having got it all out. I have never really said most of that stuff to him, or at least not that directly.

HeleninaHandcart Can't help but at the thought of the annual party in MILs hometown. You said something that touched a nerve. 'The special son'. xDP is definitely the chosen one. The older bro is very successful (xDP not unsuccessful but less money-driven) and xDP is 6 years younger. So xDP tells me, the older brother never cried except for once and didn't really show emotion and xDP was 'the naughty one' because his M had prayed to Allah for a naughty child and was granted one.

"This ended with her suggesting the only way was for him to get married to someone else first, have kids and take me as a second wife ." Nice. I think a big motivator for M is that the older bro and his wife have been married for 3 years now.

Cool and practical is the mantra from now on. Cool and practical. Need to make a list. And yes squishy texting is not the way, although in some ways I feel xDP lashes out because he feels cornered face to face so at least he will have time to digest.

I can't let M into our DS's life. I just can't. As guilty as it makes me feel I am just going to have suck it up so I don't pass this lifetime of guilt xDP feels onto DS.

Sorry for the length again but thank you for responding. You are helping me find my way.

4. His reply: " No one's forcing you to do anything. I conveyed the message, you said no. I'll see if there are other avenues...the key question I need you to answer is whether you want DS to ever meet and have an ongoing relationship with M?"

Why didn't you just say 'No, I don't want him to have anything to do with your mother, now or ever'.

This doesn't need to be a big freak out.

You need to sort out contact details officially, you need to sort out maintenances officially and you need to woman up and stop trying to please everyone and then freaking out.

The lawyer doesn't need to know anything about Sharia law. They need to know about English law and get things sorted out there.

If you honestly believe that your DS is in danger from xDP's mother and therefore xDP then you need to make sure you have everything legally in place to protect him.

Stop talking with xDP by text, it is pointless, you need to deal with this properly and in a grown up way.

Sharia, Shmaria. What the fuck are you on, girlfriend?

From what you've said, you are the only barrier preventing your tiny ds from being ritually (i.e no anaesthetic) circumsised and regligiously brainwashed and emotionally abused into an equally screwed up replica of his df.

If your baby son's mother needs to 'find her way' on an internet site, I'm not going to put money on his chances of making it through the years unscathed by the assorted fruitcakes in his family tree.

For God's, Christ's, Allah's, Buddha's, Karta Purakh's, Shiva's, and all the other deities out there sake, get your act together, stick your woolly minded liberalism and your fluffy 'wouldn't it be nice/if only' ideaism up your own, or your sperm donor's arse, and step up to the plate.

You chose to bring this child into the world. Now do your duty by him. No ifs, no buts. HIS WELLBEING COMES FIRST, so kiss your self-indulgent navel gazing goodbye and get on with raising your son - alone, if that's what it takes for you to have permanent peace of mind about his physical, psychological, emotional, and spirtual welfare.

You mentioned turning down a second interview for a job outside of the UK? Is it still availabe? If not, I'm sure you can find another job opportunity that will take you and your precious little ds away from this madness, and if you pull that off I'll be the first to say well done, and bon voyage.

If you don't end this shit now, I suspect that you'll be another 'mother with child abducted by Muslim father' featured in a double-page spread in the Femail section of the Daily Fail.

For the sake of your blissfully innocent and unaware ds, please prove me wrong.

harsh, izzy - but I agree with the main thrust of your post, if not quite your forthrightness!

I agree with my main thrust too, thumbwitch, and I hasten to reassure you that, before clicking on 'post message' I spent a few seconds gazing at my belly button and picking the odd bit of fluff out of it gave some thought to whether I was being unduly harsh or unneccesarily forthright.

Having read this thread from start to finish several times, I further agreed with myself that the child's welfare and wellbeing outweighs all other concerns.

As the child's mother appears to be away with the feckin' fairies, I concluded that the only way to get her attention was by sounding a loud clarion call - also known as a rude awakening.

Only time will tell if my refusal to pussy foot around lack of tact and diplomacy has played any part in preventing one small child from needlessly growing into a damaged adult.

In the meantime, my conscience is clear.

Stacey, you seem to be spending a lot of time trying to figure them out. Trying to work out what is going on in their heads, how you can sort things out.

I would suggest that it is not possible to figure them out. She is barking, and he is obviously not all he seems. His latest texts highlight that he could easily switch back to fighting the corner of his mother.

I think that there is only one route that you can take in all this - see a solicitor, sort things with the CSA, and keep your son away from "MIL". Stop trying to sort it all out in your head, you are driving yourself crazy with lack of sleep.

as it should be, izzy. As it should be :)

Mortloth I will be saying no contact with M to him tonight, forever. I am paying heed to the practical advice on here, of which there has been plenty and taking steps (passport, passport office, legal advice). I think I have already said that definitely until (and maybe never) I have everything in place there will be no contact with xDP without me being there. Can't risk it. Texts are evidence for PSO. I can show the solicitor these.

Izzy I appreciate you think you are in the audience at a Ricki Lake show are trying to help and I have chosen to post in AIBU so I should have been more prepared to read a post like yours. I wasn't.

Until Monday I thought this malign influence was out of my DS's life permanently through her own choice. I think xDP told his M about the existence of DS in Oct/November so , so about 8 months ago. The past 3 days of navel-gazing as you put it, have been awful, realising that this is not the case and I am going to have to fight. I can't agree that the best course of action is to remove me and my DS from our friends and our family (entire support network etc., happily established in nursery, sorting out schools) to take a job abroad, for the sole purpose of running away from this woman. It would be giving her too much power and enabling her to cut me and DS off from everyone we need right now and deny DS any relationship with his father, even supervised contact. The job I referred to was a great job, the travel was secondary and tbh an inconvenience but the job itself would have been a great opportunity. I was only told at interview it would involve that level of travel for the first year, but was ultimately London based so I didn't apply to run away and I don't think I should have to apply for jobs permanently based abroad now purely in order to run away.

Was there any need for the sperm donor reference or did you just get carried away?

Pfft I am getting the practical stuff sorted. It's the emotional side of all this (hence all the navel-gazing on here since Monday evening) I am struggling to come to terms with. To me it is a big deal to say to xDP that his M will never have any contact with DS and while I know it's what I have to do, doesn't make it any easier. The navel-gazing on here is allowing me to reconcile what I know I need to do to protect DS with the guilt I feel for doing it. That is what I meant by "finding my way". The text exchange confirmed exactly what you have said, which is xDP can not now be trusted to protect DS. He is never going to be able to stand up to his M of that I am sure.

I am also listening to what TheBigJessie is saying about how she feels about the pull of her mum (TBJ - does the fact that you know all this know and have acknowledged it make you feel better or worse? Was there a lightbulb moment for you?)

Not better, or worse. "Free" I think. It was kind of an odd drawn-out process. I knew by the time I was 15 I didn't see how she would be a positive influence on any grandchild, for example, and I also knew I wouldn't be able to stop her taking over any child if I was still living there. (I mean, you can't even claim child benefit in your own name for your off-spring until 18.) I was thus very careful and enthusiastic about contraception as a teenager!

The difficult part was things like learning not to prioritise her over myself (and to entertain the idea that my mother's social analyses of modern Britain could be wrong- I used to repeat almost every thing she said as fact ). Recognising that her absurd conditions on things were her problem and I had no duty to sort it all for her. To draw an analogy, it was kind of like recognising that if ex-partner mother's says she'll only see a baby if it's a muslim baby, she's the one being manipulative.

Tbh, I regret posting on this thread in the first place, because I think I've just added to your terror. I only posted before, because I thought you were being overly-idealistic about the benefits of having a nasty, manipulative caaaaaaaaah of a granny in his life and being all soppy liberal.

I have never met your ex-partner; I'm not a psychologist. You need to talk to him about it all. And you should talk to a solicitor about child abduction concerns; the same way a married couple should have both their names on their house deeds, in case everything breaks down.

But it doesn't mean it will happen. Your ex seems quite intellectually aware of what kind of mother he's got and has known for a long time. He's even had therapy. He's been incredibly open about her, previously. Meanwhile, I have a sense judging from this thread- I may have completely the wrong end of the stick that you have been worrying about depriving your son of his grandmother all this time, and your ex knows that.

So, when the idea came up maybe after a nice weekend, when his mother had been on her best behaviour for the visiting guest, maybe he decided to consult you first, rather than dismissing it without you even having any input. You need to ask him, because he's an actual 4D person- width, height, breadth, and his own life-experiences, with his own strengths and weaknesses. Not a replica of me, not a replica of the latest report of a child-abducting father.

One more Yet another point: she's a nasty relation and most people have one, somewhere, I think but she's not in charge of the Pakistani Mafia, even if there was one! Even if she decided she wanted your child tomorrow, what's she gonna do? Walk in through your door and take him? Yeah, like you'd let her!

Her only access point (if she even wants it) is your ex. Who smokes, drinks, has relationships with whatever woman he falls in love with, no matter his mother's opinion...

See a solicitor. Get all the worse case scenarios sorted out, because that's responsible parenting. But don't take a little boy's father away from him, just because MN terrified you.

I'm sorry, that whole post may be reads as incredibly patronising.

Hi Stacey, Sorry to see that the replies have freaked you out. Frightened is NOT GOOD. Angry, suspicious, cautious is good (in this case I hasten to add), but not frightened. Your son is not in any immediate danger. The poster above is right in saying that you don't need a lawyer with knowledge in Sharia law, you are not thinking of marrying him are you?? Please don't.

I also think you are being unduly paranoid about circumcision, you are not even going to let your DS go to his father's place in the furture, how on earth do you think M is going to see him? And take him to get him circumcised? It's not a question of having an imam there and the imam taking a knife to him (!!), it is a medical procedure done by a doctor.

Everything is under your control at this stage. Don't give your ex an inch. I don't know why you are engaging with him in having this conversation and showing him your fears. Just say NO. If he asks if you want your son to have a relationship with M just say it wasn't you who put up any barriers to that. Your ex is the one to blame in this, he knew his mother wouldn't accept a child born out of wedlock, so he should accept the consequences and either convince his mother to change her ideas (and good luck with that) or accept that she will not see him. He can't ask you to go into a sham marriage with great risks to you and your son just because he didn't think things through before putting it out.

agree with izzy

I don't mean the poster immediately above but someone else, didn't see that others had posted!

Some of the things you mention are cultural, and not a sign of looniness or anything to be afraid of. The "hot and cold food" for instance isn't really hot and cold but more "heaty" and "cooling". It is not a concept familiar in the West but is recognised in Ayurveda. Like pineapple and prawns are examples of "heaty" food and yoghurt and grapes are examples of "cooling". Quite non-sinister and not a big deal .

You feel guilt for protecting your DS from an abusive person?

What she did to her DS was child abuse, why would you feel guilty for keeping your DS from the same?

I don't get you, I don't get the passiveness, I don't get the lack of rage at what this woman did to a man you loved and what she would do to your DS given half the chance. She wants to cut a bit off him!

It doesn't matter that she is a Muslim/part of a minority. It is irrelevant, what she did was unforgiveable IMO and you need to toughen up. If keeping your DS away from her means keeping him away from their entire family then do whatever you have to do make that happen.

@thebigjessie - I disagree, I thought your post wasn't patronising, it was entirely sane and carefully thought out.

@mynameisstacey - the biggest reason M has a partial hold over your ex is that she's his mum, a single parent. And guess what, you have just as much influence over your son. Whatever decision you make about M, her influence over your ex stems from his upbringing. Which isn't your childhood, nor your son's, so unless you're planning to send him off for summer holidays with her I think you're overestimating the potential influence of someone you've never met. It's dead easy for everyone sitting here at their screens to shout "she's a evil witch!" but in RL things are more complicated than that. I think MN has given you the necessary boot up the arse about the sham marriage and sounded a great note of caution to get your legal shit in order, but after that? Don't pay too much attention to the interwebs, we may be well-meaning but then maybe M is too... If we told you to jump off a bridge would you do that too? Just... listen to your own heart and head, and talk things through calmly and honestly with your ex. Nothing worse than fucking things up because your listened to someone else's reason rather than your own.

I agree with Izzy.

Stop faffing about with texts and shit, and get on with things. Forget this man, stop communicating and "negotiating". Your texts to him come across as needy and whining and self justifying. No need. Walk away from all this.