to ask if I should accept this 'proposal' of marriage?

[MyNameIsStacey]

Namechanger. Non-troll credentials: shit pouffe; blind dates at the penguin enclosure; Box room troll; JudgeFlounce etc. I am going to try to be succinct but don't want to drip feed so bear with me please. There's a lot I could dripfeed about so this going to be really difficult.

So me and x-DP (1 DC almost 2 years old) have been split for about 10 months. He is a secret atheist but his family are Muslim. His dad died when he was 6, his mum is a religious loon. He would never be able to tell his Mum he is not a believer because her view is you are born a Muslim and he fears her reaction would kill or injure her.

On being told he was in a relationship with a white non-Muslim girl - not me his previous GF (mum is also racist - he should be marrying someone from a village from her homeland and despite living here since early 1960s is not integrated and entirely reliant on her small network of friends from home who are in the UK, which is a great source of sadness and difficulty for x-DP) she waited outside his office every evening for 2 weeks and tore at her clothes wailing when he tried to leave work. xDP was made to sleep in her bed with her until he was 13. Nothing sexual but he was effectively made to be her companion in replacement of father. He wet the bed most nights until the point at which he could sleep in his own bed. She is the epitome of an emotionally blackmailing control freak.

When I was pregnant xDP was v afraid of telling her. Once he even got very nasty with me (not physically abusive) by telling me once he told her she would be at my door every day (we didn't/don't live together) once the baby was born and she would demand to do everything and I wouldn't even get to hold the baby and there was nothing he could do about that. At the time I was scared (8 months pregnant and hormonal). In one of our few Relate session as we were parting I pointed out to him he had effectively tried to transfer his fear of her onto me during that outburst. He didn't acknowledge that but I think it struck home.

He told me that his mother would view me as an evil white whore (sounds vindictive but just reality really) and would probably not want to know her GC even if he told her. DC was born, xDP and I split up when DC was 6 months and we have reached a pretty amicable situation where xDP comes to mine straight after work 3x a week to do dinner, bath and bedtime. A few months ago he told me he had finally told his mum about existence of DC. I think she took to her bed and was ill for a bit but she didn't want to know or meet GC. My parents and I breathed a sigh of relief. xDP, not being Muslim in belief, had not applied any pressure for circumcision (and would not have got it) but has asked that DC not be allowed to pork. I have agreed for as long as DC's diet is 'controlled' by us I am happy not to feed him pork. If DC gets to his first school birthday party and scoffs a load of cocktail sausages, it will be his choice and not ours by that point. xDP agreed. DC has a registered Islamic name on BC which also has an Old Testament equivalent and is called both. DC has both our surnames to reflect both heritages. Because neither of us is religious DC won't be actively participating in any religion unless he grows to want to, happy for him to visit churches/mosques/do assembly/do 'Christmas'/ do 'Eid' all as cultural experiences with religious background but I'm afraid if he asks what it's all about I would say well some people believe this and because of that we all get a nice holiday off work. xDP is up for that.

So we're pootling along ok. I don't dislike xDP. I think he is a person trapped by his background and circumstance and while I think he is a coward for how he cannot deal with his mother (and it is a huge part of why we split) I would never want to be the reason why someone was excluded from their family, unless that was their choice. So.....skip to the end.

xDP dropped the bombshell tonight that his mother has flown in a friend from home, and this friend (who she takes all her advice from - it's a bit of a freaky Rasputin set-up where this women is believed to have religious visions and xDP's M hangs on her every word) has declare me and xDP must get married to legitimise DC in eyes of Islam. It would not be an officially legal marriage in eyes of law - more like in mum's living room with an Imam. His M is Shi'a. xDP said tonight he was 'passing this information on'. I said what was I supposed to think of that? What if I wanted to marry a Muslim in the future? He says it is just a religious ceremony to please his Mum and will enable his Mum to meet our DC and include him in her family. When we were in love xDP was adamant (as was I) that in telling his mum we were together I would not have to convert.

AIBU to refuse to do this even if it means his mum will not acknowledge our DC? Should I get 'married' to give DC a chance of relationship with grandmother?

Also a plea for advice from any Muslims out there as to what this 'marriage' is and means? (ps. I am aware that xDP's Mum is painted in an awful light - just to avoid the BNP contingent piling in, I do not see her as representative of any other Muslims I know of which there are many)

If you asked a religious scholar or Imam type person whether you should have a fake marriage and lie about your religious beliefs - they would say absolutely not. True muslims believe that religion happens in your heart, not in meaningless gestures. A fake marriage would be fake in the eyes of Allah (if you believe in that) and so completely pointless. It would placate bigotted MIL and her strange circle but any genuine muslim would advise against it.

She sounds a mad as a box of frogs. Stay well away and FFS do not marry him for reasons you have given. Lets hope she doesnt want anything to do with your child I think if she got her claws into him then thats when your trouble would really start.
You are the Mother not her you make the decisions not her do not let religious nutters like this well versed in the old emmotional blackmail in the name of God take over.

BeenBeta as far as I know xDP only has British passport. He 'lost' it at my flat about a year ago (was in an old jacket pocket) and had to reapply for it and it was all a faff with much huffing and puffing for work travel. If he had another Pakistan passport he could have used it then. xDPs nationality is fully British - we both hail from the same London area. I don't know if he would be able to apply for a Pakistan passport for our DS without me knowing or even for himself. I assume his M has a Pakistan passport but she may have got a British one by now.

I'm a non-muslim, but I have some experience of being in your ex-partner's position, i.e. having a mad, controlling mother. I would say the emotional abuse was to a lesser level that that of your partner's mother, although some of the details are eeriely similar. (We're talking not getting my own bed until I was 16, abusive phone-calls to my friends (when I was an adult who'd left home) because she wanted me at her house. That kind of thing.)

Based on that, I'm saying NO. I have deep sympathy for your ex-partner, and he is truly in an unpleasant situation, and always has been. But his mother should not get the opportunity to get a hold on your baby, any more than my mother should get hold of my children.

If your ex-partner isn't strong enough yet to protect your baby, then it's your job, just as it would be my husband's job to protect our children, if I fell back into old patterns.

The power an abusive parent can wield is difficult to describe. I look at my life, and I think, "Well, why didn't I do that? She was hardly holding a gun to my head! How could she have stopped me?"

I'm still not fully out of those patterns. The big decisions, like telling her I will get married/live where I f*ing well like, yeah.

But for seemingly smaller things (that are actually pretty damn big, when you think about it), I do what I'm told and only realise later on.

Here's an example, which I am deeply, deeply, deeply ashamed of, which led to the realisation of exactly how far I have to go.

I went on a shopping + playground trip with her and my pre-verbal toddlers. It was okay for a bit. They had a small packet of baby snacks before the play area. Then I thought that it was time for them to have a proper meal. She said, "why? If they were hungry they'd be crying, and they've had that whole packet of snacks". I couldn't explain why I was convinced they were hungry. She said, "honestly, you're always taking them to eat If they were hungry, they'd be screaming."

Well, the rest of the trip wasn't so good. They were constantly on the verge of being upset, and my mother was cross that they weren't happy to sit and watch her trying on shoes, as they normally would have been. (Very content little people usually, my boys.) I had to keep moving the pushchair to give them new things to see. But I didn't realise they were hungry, because my mother had told me they couldn't be.

Once I was on the way home and there was nothing to distract them from their hunger, out from the malign influence , then they began to scream for food.

And then, everything clicked. They were hungry, and had been for so long, and I had allowed my mother to impose her issues with food on them, without even realising! Something I had vowed I would NEVER do.

My only explanation for my stupidity (not an excuse, for there really is none- my children should not have suffered because of my psychological problems, or hers), is that I had never consciously associated the toddlers' behaviour with whether they were hungry. Up till then, I had simply "instinctively" known when they got hungry and fetched food for them. So, that day, I was unable to justify myself in the face of her justification, and thus fell into automatically trusting her over myself.

I hope that you understand the story I'm trying to make.

Eric and other poster married to a Muslim (sorry not to namecheck - trying to keep up) - you are being very helpful. Everyone is being very helpful!

Your post: "If you asked a religious scholar or Imam type person whether you should have a fake marriage and lie about your religious beliefs - they would say absolutely not. True muslims believe that religion happens in your heart, not in meaningless gestures. A fake marriage would be fake in the eyes of Allah (if you believe in that) and so completely pointless. It would placate bigotted MIL and her strange circle but any genuine muslim would advise against it."

This is what I think - but this is also why I am getting dragged into the madness because I almost want to go and get advice from a Shi'a Imam and get him to speak to M and say WTF (well not quite) but you seriously think Allah wants this? When all I have to do is say No. But to nip this truly in the bud it feels like anything I am going to say (apart from No - I can't be forced to marry apart from the emotional blackmail which I can resist/ignore) is going to be dismissed. M is only going to listen to someone who she believes is superior in Shi'a terms.

I acutally feel really sorry for your ex. Her control over him is not to do with fear I don't think, but love, which she is exploiting by emotionally blackmailing him. And I think you're doing him a favour by saying no - why do you think he screwed up his face? He wants you to let him off the hook - that way he hasn't "betrayed" her.

I don't think she's "evil" ffs, nor do I think that if you met her at, say, a neutral location like a park with your son she would tie you up, whisk out the scissors, cut off bits of him then whisk him off to foreign climes.... so maybe that's a solution?

You seem really sensible and like a great mum, all the best sorting it out xo

Im muslim and the woman sounds like a control freak loon who gives too much credence to what 'the community' thinks.
Either have nothig to do with her or tell her she may get to know her GS in your presence and without a pretend nikah. Neverever let her alone because you dont know what else she migjt do!
Yoir ex needs to grow up and getnout of her gasp and form an adult relationship with his mother.

TheBigJessie and Honey - your two combined posts ring a bell with me about xDP's relationship with his M. It is fear and love. That is why I feel so sad for him. I do think she was emotionally abusive in the sense that in her view, she as a Muslim woman, had no external control over things outside her house so her house was ruled by her because that was all she could control. I think if xDP's dad had lived longer their lives would all have been very different. I do think the making him sleep in the same bed is weird as a child for extended period, (he used to mention sometimes that he would get off his PC to go his room and his M would be napping in his bed - this is when he is in his late 30s) but I also think she must have been exceptionally lonely. The only affection and physical contact (non-sexual! normal!) would have been between her and her DSs. Left widowed in a country she didn't really want to come to (arranged marriage), xDP says still does not speak English very well, now partially deaf but refuses to wear hearing aid, in with a strange circle of friends (as a Shi'a she makes a lot of disparaging remarks about Sunnis yet is friends with quite a few) where there seems to be some kind of competitive angle to being religious......

So yes, xDP knows all this and as well as disliking the hold his M has over him, I think he lets her emotionally manipulate him because he both loves and feels sorry for her.

Honey the more I think about it, the more I think xDP is willing me to say no. What I don't understand is why he wouldn't just tell M he'd asked and I'd said No rather than actually telling me? He is happy to lie to M about drinking and smoking etc (from my PoV the little things) but when it comes to bigger things, he just cannot. His bro was of the opinion xDP shouldn't even tell M about our DS.

BigJessie Don't beat yourself up about the food thing. I've often just forgotten to feed mine and then wondered why they were crying! I think it is understandable that you would have taken your mothers word for it, considering.

She will snatch the child out of the UK. Don't do it.

BigJessie you sound like you are on top of it and conscious of it all the time but jeez, what an effort, just to have to interact with your Mum. Sounds like you have a lovely DH to support you too. TBH I think a lot of people (like Totally has just said) would have 'deferred' to their Mums without your background. It is very ingrained so no, please don't beat yourself up the food thing. I am sure your boys ate enough to make up for it!

Riven It is all about what her circle thinks of her. In terms of religion it stinks. I am toughening up and I think when I decline I will say that I could not lie to someone religious about being religious. I may not believe in any deities (so no skin off my nose) but I can't see that any Imam/religious Shi'ite is going to want to carry out this farce unless, I suppose, they don't speak English and I don't speak Urdu so no one understands each other. Maybe that's the plan. That's why I keep harking back to find an Imam or Shi'ite scholar to have a word.

I think the muslim thing is a complete red herring. Please try to view it from a different angle - if your XP came from a (for instance) rough background, abusive mother, strong christian beliefs for instance and wanted to do this so they would be welcomed in the arms of Jesus - you would probably say (a) no way to the sham marriage and (b) you wouldn't let his abusive mother anyhwre near your son.

Plus, the fact that XP rejects Islam in its theoretical sense (argues about islam on the interenet etc) he may well fully embrace it deep down culturally. The pork thing gives lie to this fact.

Why in the name of god would you want to speak to an Imam to find out the whys and wherefores? Why do you give a shit? You are an atheist, why would his opinion even matter to you?

You are being so liberal in order not to be offensive that you can't see the wood for the trees - think of your son.

Haven't read the whole thread but can't really believe from your OP that you actually think you should maybe accept that 'proposal'.

'Hello, my ex (good riddance!) has a bonkers mum who has an even more bonkers friend, who thinks I should marry my ex. Should I do this?'

Er, wtf. With respect.

I don't think the pork thing does signify any residual genuine belief, though - I lived in China for years and could never quite come at eating dog, even though the restaurant on the corner of our street did an apparently very tasty range of dog dishes. Your upbringing can make you squeamish about these things.

To be perfectly honest. It's not down to you to go through this ceremony because of someone else's religion.

As long as you leave the door open (if you want to) for this woman to meet her GC if she ever decides to...that's all you need to do imo.

You are not Muslim with ultra strict beliefs..she is. Therefore she is the one placing a barrier between her and her GC, not you.

Good luck. I hope it all works out but please don't be guilt tripped or bullied into this. Just as you have accepted this woman has strong beliefs, she needs to accept you don't share them.

It's what a multicultural society is all about...fairness not guilt trips.

Thank you, both of you. ( TotallyLovely, you really live up to you name!)

And thank you for understanding what I'm trying to say. It is a huge effort to withstand all these little things. For example, these days, most questions carry some level of subtext, that means any affirmative will be used against me and mine in the next few years. Or used to apply retrospectively to "discussions" we had when I left home. I'm not even kidding.

And she has this way of getting everyone in the local area to look at her sympathetically with a "what a bitch of a daughter you have" expression, as she puts on this confused, helpless old lady voice when I say "no" through gritted teeth to what everyone else hears as a neutral, kind offer to buy her beloved daughter a t-shirt.

I think your ex has all this to deal with, and more, because religion is all mixed up in it. She will be getting support in the looniness, because she is expressing it in a socially acceptable way. Many observers and acquaintances will just see it as being "devout" and "caring" and other people outside her faith will worry about being discriminatory.

Which takes us back to the fake marriage aspect of this. You mustn't let a toxic person get a hold on you, and you especially must not let them legitimise any emotional or psychological hold they already have, whether it's money, ceremonies, or anything else.

And that's what she could gain: a socially-supported method of control. Tales of woe about how "my DIL won't let me see my grandson", perhaps.

I think if I were you OP I would be worried about MIL having contact with your dc alone in case she went and had him circumcised or something!

BigJessie Have you thought about distancing yourself from your mum?

TotallyLovely Oh yes. I even cut contact entirely for a few years after she Went Too Far, and I think the benefits of it will stay with me for the reast of my life. But then I ended up moving back into the same (smallish) town, and it seemed to be a choice between either controlled contact and meeting in neutral locations, or total chaos engineered by her spy net-work after she just happened to run into me and cause a huge scene when she became overwrought.

There was also a goodly amount of pressure I received in Real Life to let her back into my life, because she's my mother. (We're talking death threats here. That's how she Went Too Far, but she's my mother. I should be more understanding. )

No no and no again. This is the first of many stealth demands. Protect your DS If you have any doubts, you already have the example of his brother's DD.

You've got a boy, this is about GM power and control not love.

Jessie Death threats?! Jesus!

Your ex is terrified of her and you want to inflict her on your son?? Are you mad?

Jessie omg, that's terrible.

Ok, please forgive me for sounding unkind, but OP I think you are being less soppy liberal than fucking spineless. Sorry. And I say that as a leftie liberal.

If someone in your family was viciously racist about ex-DP, and initially refused to get to know DS on race grounds, how long would they last before you gave them what for? You wouldn't be pandering to their views, would you? How would you feel about having such a person around DS, spouting vile shit about the taint of his Asian father?

And yet on some level you are contemplating the very same thing with your MIL, because you are hand-wringing about her ethnicity, religion and problems integrating. Note ex-DP's own brother counselled him not to tell MIL he had a son at all. That guy is in a good position to know what problems it was going to bring into your lives.

I am of mixed race (European/West African), and can I say please do not allow any of that messed up shit anywhere near your DS. Ask yourself, what are the prospects of him coming out of contact with grandma with good, positive, relaxed attitudes about who he is (and who you are)?

My parents were accepted by their respective in-laws and I think the fact they were authentic, unbothered and certainly unapologetic about their own backgrounds and their mixed relationship was a big part of that. If my mother had wandered into my father's traditional (and in many ways rather difficult) extended family with your soppy liberal attitudes, they would have walked all over her.

im muslim. i have to say that marrying him now would be pointless anyway, you were not married a the time you got pregnant or before conception. no hardhsip will fall on your son because he was born out of wedlock in islam, they do not penalise children for the "sins" of the parents. If you married him it would be a sham and wouldnt even be recongnised by allah pbuh, marriage to impress anyone else is pointless and goes against gods ideals anyway, there are no intermediatries.

please, do no ever let him take your child over seas to visit his family, most muslims are kind hearted people but i would have serious concerns that his family might not allow the child to return. if you are married you may find it hard/impossible to get your little one back.

his mother is already going against islam asking you to create a false situation based on lies, your child can take the shahadah when he is older if he wants to revert, all musims take this whether born into it or not.

islam is the relationship between an individual and allah pbuh, you need to do nothing more than answer his questions as he grows up and teach him all you can about everyhting. the choice and religious calling comes from within, i cant be forced and is no more prevelant for those born initiated (bad word) than those who come too it.