to ask if I should accept this 'proposal' of marriage?

[MyNameIsStacey]

Namechanger. Non-troll credentials: shit pouffe; blind dates at the penguin enclosure; Box room troll; JudgeFlounce etc. I am going to try to be succinct but don't want to drip feed so bear with me please. There's a lot I could dripfeed about so this going to be really difficult.

So me and x-DP (1 DC almost 2 years old) have been split for about 10 months. He is a secret atheist but his family are Muslim. His dad died when he was 6, his mum is a religious loon. He would never be able to tell his Mum he is not a believer because her view is you are born a Muslim and he fears her reaction would kill or injure her.

On being told he was in a relationship with a white non-Muslim girl - not me his previous GF (mum is also racist - he should be marrying someone from a village from her homeland and despite living here since early 1960s is not integrated and entirely reliant on her small network of friends from home who are in the UK, which is a great source of sadness and difficulty for x-DP) she waited outside his office every evening for 2 weeks and tore at her clothes wailing when he tried to leave work. xDP was made to sleep in her bed with her until he was 13. Nothing sexual but he was effectively made to be her companion in replacement of father. He wet the bed most nights until the point at which he could sleep in his own bed. She is the epitome of an emotionally blackmailing control freak.

When I was pregnant xDP was v afraid of telling her. Once he even got very nasty with me (not physically abusive) by telling me once he told her she would be at my door every day (we didn't/don't live together) once the baby was born and she would demand to do everything and I wouldn't even get to hold the baby and there was nothing he could do about that. At the time I was scared (8 months pregnant and hormonal). In one of our few Relate session as we were parting I pointed out to him he had effectively tried to transfer his fear of her onto me during that outburst. He didn't acknowledge that but I think it struck home.

He told me that his mother would view me as an evil white whore (sounds vindictive but just reality really) and would probably not want to know her GC even if he told her. DC was born, xDP and I split up when DC was 6 months and we have reached a pretty amicable situation where xDP comes to mine straight after work 3x a week to do dinner, bath and bedtime. A few months ago he told me he had finally told his mum about existence of DC. I think she took to her bed and was ill for a bit but she didn't want to know or meet GC. My parents and I breathed a sigh of relief. xDP, not being Muslim in belief, had not applied any pressure for circumcision (and would not have got it) but has asked that DC not be allowed to pork. I have agreed for as long as DC's diet is 'controlled' by us I am happy not to feed him pork. If DC gets to his first school birthday party and scoffs a load of cocktail sausages, it will be his choice and not ours by that point. xDP agreed. DC has a registered Islamic name on BC which also has an Old Testament equivalent and is called both. DC has both our surnames to reflect both heritages. Because neither of us is religious DC won't be actively participating in any religion unless he grows to want to, happy for him to visit churches/mosques/do assembly/do 'Christmas'/ do 'Eid' all as cultural experiences with religious background but I'm afraid if he asks what it's all about I would say well some people believe this and because of that we all get a nice holiday off work. xDP is up for that.

So we're pootling along ok. I don't dislike xDP. I think he is a person trapped by his background and circumstance and while I think he is a coward for how he cannot deal with his mother (and it is a huge part of why we split) I would never want to be the reason why someone was excluded from their family, unless that was their choice. So.....skip to the end.

xDP dropped the bombshell tonight that his mother has flown in a friend from home, and this friend (who she takes all her advice from - it's a bit of a freaky Rasputin set-up where this women is believed to have religious visions and xDP's M hangs on her every word) has declare me and xDP must get married to legitimise DC in eyes of Islam. It would not be an officially legal marriage in eyes of law - more like in mum's living room with an Imam. His M is Shi'a. xDP said tonight he was 'passing this information on'. I said what was I supposed to think of that? What if I wanted to marry a Muslim in the future? He says it is just a religious ceremony to please his Mum and will enable his Mum to meet our DC and include him in her family. When we were in love xDP was adamant (as was I) that in telling his mum we were together I would not have to convert.

AIBU to refuse to do this even if it means his mum will not acknowledge our DC? Should I get 'married' to give DC a chance of relationship with grandmother?

Also a plea for advice from any Muslims out there as to what this 'marriage' is and means? (ps. I am aware that xDP's Mum is painted in an awful light - just to avoid the BNP contingent piling in, I do not see her as representative of any other Muslims I know of which there are many)

if you want muslim input then you need to start a new thread with ' can anyone tell me what a non-permenant muslim marriage means' you might get some answers that way.

However i agree with everyone else on this thread and think that you'd be mad to consider this. If you were still in a relationship with this man and actually wanted to have a married future with him them yes go for it but if you've moved on then no. If you did marry him and then got together with anyone else then be seen as adultery in the eyes of his community - what ramifications could that have? would they expect you son to be raised a muslim? would he be expected to have an arranged married when the time comes?

I just can't carry on fighting. Sometimes I feel like I'm in one of those Martial Arts films where the baddies are attacking from all angles and you're just a whirrrr of arms and legs.

I think that agreeing to this "marriage" may cease the fighting on this level, but a level up and you are in for some serious beating up, iyswim

THere is thread after thread on this site where someone leaves child with GP and on pick up, they have had their ears pierced or their hair cut.
Make no mistake, your little boy will have more than his fringe snipped if you turn your back for one second. People like that cannot help themselvces.

Oh yes - the man I referred to had 2 dc's with one gf. Second was a boy.

Ds was 'taken to visit' GPs (in UK) - gf couldn't go 'cos apparently it would upset GPs and not be a good start in getting them to accept gf

Ds came back circumcised!
However GPs didn't even know he existed and never met him even on the visit in question.

This was when things started to unravel and she saw how much he had controlled her using his parents as an excuse

1/ Do you want to be married to this man? If he suggested he just has a civil wedding with you that's just a legal thing for inheritance etc, would you say no? Right then, you should say no to this.

2/ What makes you think you are denying your child's relationship with his Grandmother who doesn't want to see him anyway? If she wanted to see him, she could come to your house.

3/ Get thee to CSA - your xP should pay what he owes, your DS should have that - even if you shove the extra in a saving account for his future, your xP seems flakey, that he's even considering this should be a huge warning sign

4/ The not eating pork thing, my brother's partner was brought up Catholic but in a prodominately hindu country - while he has no moral objection to eating beef, he finds it weird - he said it was a bit like suggesting I eat dog or horse, while my (CofE) faith doesn't tell me I can't, the idea still seems a bit ick

and if you missed this in the millions of posts on this thread, have another read:
"MoreBeta Tue 14-Jun-11 08:42:42
"he has only recently given me his passport details to apply for our DS"

Why? Are you the registered legal guardian of the child? Do NOT under any circumstances put his name on any kind of form to do with the child and especially a passport form.

You need to get a proper arrangment in place with CSA and ensure that you are the registered legal guardian and that he has no rights other than access. This whole informal arrangement you have is fine but backing it up with a 'formal' religious marriage ceremony changes it completely.

He will be able to remove the child from the country and most especially if he is married to you. All he needs is a recognised marriage certificate and a passport and no border security will ever stop him. Sharia law is increasingly being recognised in this country as an alternative legal system.

Wake up and smell the coffee!"

Ok I'm married Islamically to a muslim and I'm an atheist. I don't actually know whether my marriage is legally recognised in the UK, I was told by the embassy that it isn't but then elsewhere that as long as it's legally recognised in the country where you marry, that it is. I do know however that the islamic marriage isn't legally recognised on its own if it happens in the UK.
You would have to lie and say you are Christian in order to get married (I did - but then I did it for the right reason, because I love DH)

All this is irrelevant though. This is not a reasonable request. You would be mad to give the idea houseroom. The woman is abusive and toxic. Children don't need GPs like that. You do not have to do anything to placate her, she either accepts your DS as he is or she doesn't have the priviledge of being in his life. I honestly think you'd be mad to want her in his life, you owe her nothing and she'll be a dangerous influence on him.

I am not a muslim but my understanding of the shia non-permenant marriage is a way around a man not commitng zina (sin) so they contact these marriages to last a set period so that they can have sex. The terms of the arrangement are agreed beforehand and it is more a contract than a marriage.

Whilst in Egypt i met a couple of older european women who had these marriages just to get around the law that a unmarried egyptian man cannot share a hotel room with a member of the opposite sex.

I would say dont do it and if your exp mum is such a loon stay well away and keep your child away as well as i cant see any good coming from any relationship between you all.

You don't even need his passport details to apply for your son't passport. You need his DoB and address and what have you, and you need to send your birth certificate. That's it.

Tell them NO. NO WAY. Why would you?

What do you get out of it? Nothing, therefore no.

Your MIL is an unreasonable mad person. Why would you go along with her plan? Your son can't have a good relationship with his Grandmother because she is a toxic, abusive nutcase.

She will fall out with you even if you did it so it's a waste of time. As for your xDP he is not to be trusted. Every word from his mouth is a lie.

Take control here. Give them not one ounce of leeway.

Another resounding NO here. You know you cannot do it. Tell him no and it is not up for any further discussion. There is being on good terms and there is taking the piss. They are taking the piss, you know it.

I think when you say No, you will see exactly where your xDP stands in this argument. Be prepared for a surprise.

Agree. Your DP is saying that this wedding is not his idea, so you would imagine if you said NO he would say, ok then.

If and when you say no, he will NOT take this well. I would place money on that fact.

The non pork thing is the thin end of the wedge. If you conceed one small point, it will be a green light for many opther small points, and then you will be asked to conceed larger things, and it will go on and on. If I were you I would give your child a bacon sandwich (I am being flippant obviously, but am only half joking).

For goodness sake, this is madness.

The maddest thing, though, is the way YOU are discussing this- as if any part of it is something to be taken seriously, as if there's a basic LAW that somehow you must be part of it, find good reasons not to do it, etc.!!

Really, take a step back into the normal world, into reality.

Things you know:
-Your ex may be an ok bloke and an ok dad, and you get on well as co-parents, but he's an utterly spineless individual who's clearly been damaged as a person quite profoundly by the influence of his mother. You cannot trust him as regards anything to do with his mother as he fears her and her reaction more than anything. He will not put your son's welfare or what you regard as more important for your son's welfare above what his mother would want.

• His mother is unpleasant, manipulative, mentally ill and religiously obsessed. Her interactions with all other junior members of the family, that you know of, have been damaging to those junior members.

• You are currently completely independent of any obligations/complications with regard to his family and your son is thriving.

Marriage. A man who you previously had a relationship with comes to your house and suggests that his mother's religous guru has said that you should get married. No sugestion from him that this is what he wants - just that he is 'passing the message on'. Now, if you ever wanted a more telling example of how completely and utterly inadequate this man is, there you have it. Someone else has suggested that he get married to his ex, he meekly goes to said ex and 'passes this on' for her consideration? Quite frankly, even if you still loved him desperately, that attitude should have any sensible woman with a child to consider making damn sure that this excuse for an adult had as little responsibility for her son and his future as possible. Your ex is an incapable, weak, damaged man. While you need absolutely no reason at all to decide that you'd rather not marry a bloke you once had a relationship with, if you DO want a reason, there it is. One of the best things you could do for your child is to make sure that his other parent is not provided with any more decision-making powers over him than he already has. Don't make him any sort of husband to you.

This is without even considering the absolute can of worms that is his mother and any closer contact with your ex's family. Do you really need to have this highlighted any more than has been already? You sound intelligent and aware, so I doubt it. Keeping your son well away from an abusive and frankly insane woman is the sensible thing to do. He will thank you for it.

So just say no.

Being a 'soppy liberal' or any other of the more nuanced considerations you mention above just simply shouldn't come into it. It's a mad idea which brings you and your son absolutely no benefits and is in fact highly insulting to you. You are NOT in a relationship with this man and you have moved on. You are NOT part of his family, how dare they assume that you basically are one of them and demand that it get 'formalised'? What kind of marriage it is, arguing over under what circumstances your son would see his grandmother - all pointless details. The idea is a nonsense and you should cut it dead quick-smart. No. You have the relationship you want with your child's other parent, thankyou.

You are already worrying that this would ruin the relationship between you and your ex. I'm afraid you probably should see this as an inevitable part of the road that HE seems to be going down. His mother is the mover here - she's clearly decided that it's time to make a move on your son. That's the bottom line. Someone said upthread that you can't be sure he loves your son more than he fears his mother - I think you CAN be sure - it's his mother that will pull him harder. She had years to ruin him as a person, he is who he is. In speaking to him on this you are speaking to her - if you want to protect your son from ending up like his dad, refuse - you and he will fall out, yes.

But be warned from trying to appease him here - from trying to sit somewhere in the middle. As said, she will be pulling his strings. You know this. So if you try for a middle ground, what will happen is that you will make agreements/arrangements with him, and HE WILL LIE TO YOU TO GIVE HIS MOTHER WHAT SHE WANTS. You cannot trust him. You have already mentioned the fear of circumcision. I think you are very right to think forward to this point.

It all comes to the same thing. The arrangement you have now is working. All the evidence tells you that you should continue to keep his mother OUT of your lives. In fact, your ex may be secretly hoping that you do refuse all this, even though temporarily you and he may end up at loggerheads. He is too weak to stand against her, you're going to have to do it for him. Please find the strength to, and don't let a very mistaken idea of 'good relations' mislead you here. Please protect your son and do your ex a favour too by laughing this idea out of the room, and making it clear that you want NO contact with his abusive mother. Ever.

And if you really are concerned about the possibility of circumcision against your wishes then you could seek a Prohibited Steps Order from the court, stating that your ex is not to circumcise/allow the circumcision of your son.

It is a while since I did any family law but I think Prohibited Steps Orders are still in place.

You don't marry someone because their mum said so. You are an adult. Say no.

Well said Shouty Hamster.

I was thinking about the 'soppy liberal' remark...don't allow your desire to be 'fairminded' and respectful and reasonable to be exploited by these two disfunctional people.

They're not interested in being fair/reasonable to YOU, just in manipulating you quite ruthlessly to get control over your son. Mark my words that's what they're up to.

Sorry am struggling to keep up. DS at nursery now so I can read properly. Thank you for all replies.

1. Just to clear up passport issue - on the UK passport form it asked for passport no and place of birth of xDP as father. xDP is on birth certificate so has PR. xDP was not asking me for passport details - I was asking him. I would always keep our DS's passport with me. xDP would not have any reason to have it. (Plus I know people are calling me naive and I know it all looks bad in black and white - believe me - reading this through I know that but I still want to believe xDP would put our DS first and an ambush circumcision or whisking him off to Pakistan would not be putting him first)

1. Appreciate the point one poster made about the food practices - my very best friend who has supported me throughout all of this (and more) is Hindu/Jainist so I do know hot/cold foods etc are a common belief in India/Pakistan so not part of xDP's M lunacy. It is just another thing xDP would moan about her going on to him about. xDP lives partially with her and his house he owns is about 15 mins drive from her so he is back and forth still.

1. I will say no to the sham marriage (temp or perm). I am worried about the fallout of this though. At the moment DS (18 months) has spent about 4 weekends with xDP at his house since January. xDP is not generally keen on having him at weekends (unless he has friends staying with him, generally visiting from the States etc who have children) and at first I was put out by this (trophy child) but xDP has been very constant and become more and more reliable in his 3x weeknights visits after work. So at the moment xDP sees DS at my flat. However, say M drops the sham marriage idea and still wants to see DS I have no power to stop xDP taking him to see her without me when he has her. As I said before, I have told xDP I do not want DS introduced to her without me being present and he agreed. But we all know that means nothing and any pressure from M and he will cave.

Just scouring again to answer any questions!

OP, have any of the things he's told you about his mother been confirmed by anyone else?

I don't think you should go ahead with this 'marriage'.

The marriage and the religion things are total red herrings. This woman is abusive. She mentally abused her own son through his childhood - I believe that social services would take a dim view of a child being forced to sleep in his mother's bed as her 'companion', with the result that the child was so distressed that he wet the bed for years until being allowed to sleep alone. She controls him, and in common with many controlled people, he is unable to see the full picture or escape her grasp.

With regard to your own son, again social services would, I believe, consider that your son is 'at risk' from both his grandmother, and also to some extent from his father, since his father is unable/unwilling to put his childs well-being before his own or his mothers.

You absolutely should refuse to participate in this sham marriage. I would also advise putting some legal controls in place to protect your son, and at this stage I would think very carefully about letting your exP have access to your son without either you, or a representative of you, also being present.

I think you need to get contact sorted out properly and officially.

From what you have posted this is about to go very bad for you.

Personally, I wouldn't trust such a spineless wimp as far as I could kick him and kick him I think I possibly would.

The question I would ask myself in this situation (and as one half of a marriage where DH has a lunatic mother as well I recognise many elements) is, how would this 'marriage' benefit my son? And if the answer is 'in no way whatsoever', then that would solve any dilemma for me.

Look - rather than seeing it as an action movie (as above), you might be better served seeing this as a horror movie (sorry...) You've got a good happy set-up, and an external, malign influence. What always happens in these sorts of movies is for one reason or another, the good people always give the bad person a toe-hold, which is then exploited with disastrous consequences.

What's the worst that could happen with this? Well, the very worst is that she persuades your ex to take your son to Pakistan, and because of the religious marriage you can't get him back. Why create even the possibility?

I would not accept his proposal, he is a very weak man who seems to have a very un-healthy relationship with his mother who is clearly a loon very troubled woman.

It sounds from what has been said that she is mentally ill and If I were you I would keep my child as far away from her as I could.