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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to ask if I should accept this 'proposal' of marriage?

286 replies

MyNameIsStacey · 14/06/2011 00:32

Namechanger. Non-troll credentials: shit pouffe; blind dates at the penguin enclosure; Box room troll; JudgeFlounce etc. I am going to try to be succinct but don't want to drip feed so bear with me please. There's a lot I could dripfeed about so this going to be really difficult.

So me and x-DP (1 DC almost 2 years old) have been split for about 10 months. He is a secret atheist but his family are Muslim. His dad died when he was 6, his mum is a religious loon. He would never be able to tell his Mum he is not a believer because her view is you are born a Muslim and he fears her reaction would kill or injure her.

On being told he was in a relationship with a white non-Muslim girl - not me his previous GF (mum is also racist - he should be marrying someone from a village from her homeland and despite living here since early 1960s is not integrated and entirely reliant on her small network of friends from home who are in the UK, which is a great source of sadness and difficulty for x-DP) she waited outside his office every evening for 2 weeks and tore at her clothes wailing when he tried to leave work. xDP was made to sleep in her bed with her until he was 13. Nothing sexual but he was effectively made to be her companion in replacement of father. He wet the bed most nights until the point at which he could sleep in his own bed. She is the epitome of an emotionally blackmailing control freak.

When I was pregnant xDP was v afraid of telling her. Once he even got very nasty with me (not physically abusive) by telling me once he told her she would be at my door every day (we didn't/don't live together) once the baby was born and she would demand to do everything and I wouldn't even get to hold the baby and there was nothing he could do about that. At the time I was scared (8 months pregnant and hormonal). In one of our few Relate session as we were parting I pointed out to him he had effectively tried to transfer his fear of her onto me during that outburst. He didn't acknowledge that but I think it struck home.

He told me that his mother would view me as an evil white whore (sounds vindictive but just reality really) and would probably not want to know her GC even if he told her. DC was born, xDP and I split up when DC was 6 months and we have reached a pretty amicable situation where xDP comes to mine straight after work 3x a week to do dinner, bath and bedtime. A few months ago he told me he had finally told his mum about existence of DC. I think she took to her bed and was ill for a bit but she didn't want to know or meet GC. My parents and I breathed a sigh of relief. xDP, not being Muslim in belief, had not applied any pressure for circumcision (and would not have got it) but has asked that DC not be allowed to pork. I have agreed for as long as DC's diet is 'controlled' by us I am happy not to feed him pork. If DC gets to his first school birthday party and scoffs a load of cocktail sausages, it will be his choice and not ours by that point. xDP agreed. DC has a registered Islamic name on BC which also has an Old Testament equivalent and is called both. DC has both our surnames to reflect both heritages. Because neither of us is religious DC won't be actively participating in any religion unless he grows to want to, happy for him to visit churches/mosques/do assembly/do 'Christmas'/ do 'Eid' all as cultural experiences with religious background but I'm afraid if he asks what it's all about I would say well some people believe this and because of that we all get a nice holiday off work. xDP is up for that.

So we're pootling along ok. I don't dislike xDP. I think he is a person trapped by his background and circumstance and while I think he is a coward for how he cannot deal with his mother (and it is a huge part of why we split) I would never want to be the reason why someone was excluded from their family, unless that was their choice. So.....skip to the end.

xDP dropped the bombshell tonight that his mother has flown in a friend from home, and this friend (who she takes all her advice from - it's a bit of a freaky Rasputin set-up where this women is believed to have religious visions and xDP's M hangs on her every word) has declare me and xDP must get married to legitimise DC in eyes of Islam. It would not be an officially legal marriage in eyes of law - more like in mum's living room with an Imam. His M is Shi'a. xDP said tonight he was 'passing this information on'. I said what was I supposed to think of that? What if I wanted to marry a Muslim in the future? He says it is just a religious ceremony to please his Mum and will enable his Mum to meet our DC and include him in her family. When we were in love xDP was adamant (as was I) that in telling his mum we were together I would not have to convert.

AIBU to refuse to do this even if it means his mum will not acknowledge our DC? Should I get 'married' to give DC a chance of relationship with grandmother?

Also a plea for advice from any Muslims out there as to what this 'marriage' is and means? (ps. I am aware that xDP's Mum is painted in an awful light - just to avoid the BNP contingent piling in, I do not see her as representative of any other Muslims I know of which there are many)

OP posts:
MyNameIsStacey · 14/06/2011 10:27

A couple of posters have asked what do I know independently about M:

Only through friends of xDP's. There is a story about him going away for NYE to stay in a cottage with them and his x-GF. M did not want him to be away for NYE (1 Jan is her birthday - she does not know her real birthdate) and so phoned, using xDP's older brother to get friends on the phone and demand they send xDP back. Friends report her as v scary even just on the phone!

These friends are as bewildered as me as to xDPs MAHOOOSIVE blindspot when it comes to his M. Like I have said before he has lived a dual life, was born in UK, drinks, smokes (has given up recently), very militant (not to M) against creationism/evils of organised religion as he sees it, a physicist by training, very smart. And yet the ties to M remain.

It is not just my bleeding liberalism (and thank you so much to the Avluss - it is not that non-Muslims saying the same thing don't count to me, but for some reason I want to hear from Muslims that this is not the religion speaking, M is just several sandwiches short of a picnic - I believe this to be true but need to hear it externally to validate) that is tearing at me - it is my sadness for xDP. I don't love him romantically but I have and continue to feel incredibly sad for him that he is in this position and that basically he lives his life in constant conflict/between two worlds/always trying to broker a deal/find a way through. I KNOW that is because he will not stand up to M, but he was brought up by her and she is his mum. I have seen other situations in my life and I am not saying M was abusive (part of her religious zeal means for her that without this marriage her DS and my DS will be in sin - no virgins for them as xDP would say - so they will essentially go to Hell - which to the non-religious amongst us well so what? but to her I should imagine is torture).

To the Poster who said "In fact, your ex may be secretly hoping that you do refuse all this, even though temporarily you and he may end up at loggerheads. He is too weak to stand against her, you're going to have to do it for him." - this has occurred to me too and I wonder whether I am being pitched into battle with M on behalf of xDP. That he secretly wants me to say absolutely not. At the moment I am clinging to this thought.

OP posts:
catinthehat2 · 14/06/2011 10:28

that sentence leapt out at me too MZ

""I still want to believe.." is a pretty dim way of going about things when your little boy could be seriously compromised

MyNameIsStacey · 14/06/2011 10:29

LTJ xDP would appreciate your horror movie reference. He is a big horror fan.

shoutyhamster Thank you for shouting at me. You speak a lot of sense for a hamster Grin

OP posts:
thumbwitch · 14/06/2011 10:30

Ok - so you've decided to refuse his proposal - good. Stick to it, you know you're making the sane decision here.

Next you have to think about further things - this has come out of the blue for you and has made you question whether or not your ex would actually put your DS's best interests first, and follow your requests.
If you have any doubts then you need to put some legal stuff in place, including prevention of your DS being circumcised without your permission. It needs to be in place and you need to tell your ex that it is in place and that he WILL be committing a criminal offence if it happens when DS is in his care.
You need to clarify the finances and get them sorted legally as well.

I know it might sound as though it's all a bit beleaguering, but as the saying goes, an ounce of prevention is better than pounds of cure - anticipate the worst case scenarios and be proactive in preventing them.

Lunabelly · 14/06/2011 10:34

No no no, please listen to what everyone has said.

Do you really want an unstable, domineering racist fundamentalist having any contact or influence with your DS?

Especially one who is influenced by a Rasputin who was criminally insane like figure?

If I had a pound for every woman who thought she was marrying an atheist and ended up having her children, at best, circumcised against her wishes, at worst, snatched, I'd be Bill gates. With a Rockerfeller on top :(
Please please please. Keep the current status quo...and be happy that MiL-type-person is NOT in your life.

From someone who has never lost the fear of her child being snatched

MyNameIsStacey · 14/06/2011 10:34

OK I must toughen up.

I have said above I will say No to the marriage (temp or perm).

KungFu Panda I will look into a Prohibited Steps Order. However, being a lawyer myself and having been on the receiving end of some nasty discrimination at work while pregnant I am losing faith in the law. It is a horribly blunt tool and I am assuming all a PSO would do is have consequences for M if she were to do the unthinkable - it wouldn't prevent her. The only way to prevent her is to effectively never let xDP have our DS to himself/time together without me at his house which is pretty fucked up.

OP posts:
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 14/06/2011 10:37

I am married to a non-muslim married muslim and we did not go through a muslim marriage ceremony but I am fully accepted by his family in his home country (note Sunni not Shia).

Be very very careful about the parental rights of foreign wives if you do go through this ceremony and your DS ever gets taken to Pakistan. You might find you have no rights at all. Remember the case of Misbah Rana en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misbah_Rana.

I am pretty sure that in my DH's home country I would have limited parental rights because I am not muslim. Luckily that is not something I have to worry about but if our marriage was ever in trouble I would be locking away their passports pretty quickly and filing a notice with all relevant authorities inc the relevant consulate.

FreudianSlipper · 14/06/2011 10:38

no you should not

she needs to accept you and if she can not that is her problem and her loss. do not let her minipulate you and i am sure if you had a little girl she would quite easily ignore her. sadly she is stuck in cultural tradition and religious dogma that will not change. your poor ex partner. things are fine as they are and you ds is happy so either she makes the effort or loses out.

and you are right if she was a girl she woudl not be interested

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 14/06/2011 10:39

x post - am very glad you have said no. Do put legal protections in place, I wouldn't trust your DP's mum as far as I could throw her (Would you like me to have a go at throwing her anyway? Wink)

EricNorthmansMistress · 14/06/2011 10:40

MaryZ said -

^Another point is that presumably if you are "married" and you ever have another relationship you will be an adulterer, so under that law he would also have the right to get rid of you and keep your son?

Unless you decide to never let your child out of your sight (so they can't take him to another country) and never to have another relationship with a man, I would not under any circumstances agree to anything that will give your ex more rights under any sort of Muslim law that you might not fully understand (or indeed any law at all)^

She is quite right. With a marriage certificate and proof of abandonment he could take your child away. Proof of abandonment would be him in Pakistan with your son, and you not. Without a marriage certificate you could get the weight of UK law behind you - if he has a marriage certificate then Pakistani law will be against you.

Muslim laws vary from country to country but the less progressive countries always award custody to the father. So as I say, all he would need to do would be to get DS to Pakistan then apply for divorce there - a solicitor could get this done easily. He could lie through his teeth and have the divorce and custody awarded in your absense. Interpol wouldn't be much help against the law of the country he's in.

You cannot trust XP and you cannot trust his mother. Do not allow him any legal standing in your life. Islamic marriage may be meaningless to you but in Pakistan it certainly is not.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 14/06/2011 10:43

Sorry start of my post at10.37 should read
I am a non muslim married to a muslim

Not the gobbledegook that is currently there!

HooverTheHamaBeads · 14/06/2011 10:44

Say NO to sham marriage
Formalise contact and maintenance arrangements via a solicitor
Keep DS's passport under lock and key or preferably have a close friend or family of yours look after it.

Stacey - this is your precious boy and it's your duty to protect him.

thumbwitch · 14/06/2011 10:44

Just as a thought - seeing that some politicians have been debating whether or not to introduce Sharia law into the British legal system - if they ever succeeded in that, would a Muslim marriage that hadn't had a BRitish legal ceremony become recognisable in the UK as well in Muslim countries that already recognised Sharia law?

Why on earth are any UK politicians even considering introducing Sharia law into the UK anyway - does anyone know?

EricNorthmansMistress · 14/06/2011 10:49

for some reason I want to hear from Muslims that this is not the religion speaking, M is just several sandwiches short of a picnic

I'm not muslim but I am married to one and have a marvellous muslim MIL and SILs. This is Not Normal and not Islam. I got pg before we were married (miscarried though) but MIL was over the moon and nothing less than supportive. They assumed we would get married after but never ever made an issue of it to me or SH.

EricNorthmansMistress · 14/06/2011 10:52

DH (SH = Stinky Husband possibly?)

fuzzywuzzy · 14/06/2011 10:53

As a muslim, I would suggest you politely decline.

You are not even together, you cannot retrospectively 'legitimise DC' how utterly ridiculous is that anyway, and why the hell should you, your DP wasn't terribly worried then so why be passing on the information now?

Also Islamically, if you have a religious ceremony with this man, you are religiously considered his wife, so if you wanted to marry a Msulim man in the future you wouldnt be able to unless you obtained a divorce first, which depending on your loopy MIL could be never!

Don't do it, do not tie yourself to a man too wet to stand up for you.

A religious ceremony or lack thereof does not make your child any less you exdp's, he nees to stand up and protect his baby!

He sounds an arse!

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 14/06/2011 10:55

Following on from EricNorthmansMistress I would agree that your experience is very different (in a bad way) from my experience of being a non muslim being married to a muslim (who was born in a muslim country). And yes she is an entire loaf short of a picnic.

DontGoCurly · 14/06/2011 10:56

but for some reason I want to hear from Muslims that this is not the religion speaking, M is just several sandwiches short of a picnic - I believe this to be true but need to hear it externally to validate) that is tearing at me

You shouldn't need a second opinion from a Muslim to 'validate' the belief that your MIL is toxic.

Ask yourself why is this so important to you? It's almost as if you are seeking approval from external sources of your stance before you have the confidence to beliefs. That is not good. You are placing the locus of control for your childs welfare outside yourself. You are placing your need to be seen as ultra fair and reasonable before your childs best interests.

Yes, there will be fallout. The very nature of your MIL means there will always be chaos and danger around her. You need to be the constant in your sons life. You need to be his solid rock. You can't allow yourself to be manipulated by your ex and his Mother.

You can't wait ineffectually for permission/approval from some neutral Muslim adjudicator before you have the confidence to act or refrain from acting. You've got to stop being so soft. Certain people will descend on softness like flies on shit.

Eurostar · 14/06/2011 10:58

Sorry, not read the whole thread but, having read the description of how MIL treated ex as a child, I can't understand why you want her to have contact with your DC. Forget the Muslim part, essentially she is a "toxic" parent, why not read those long Stately home threads and think about her in those terms rather than anything to do with her religion. Clearly her life has been limited, it is very sad, she can't adapt and change.

If you want your son to be in touch with his heritage, there are other ways to do that other than through is grandmother.

ninedragons · 14/06/2011 11:00

You took the only sane course of action by saying no.

Whatever the faults of the English legal system, you really have to bring all the protections it offers to your son. It is also your maternal duty to protect him from a malevolent, insane person. In an ideal world he would have a relationship with his granny, but this is not an ideal world and she is not a worthy granny.

Hoover is right - hide your DS's passport away from your home and never, ever let on where it is. I would go one step further and start finding out if there's any way to put a port alert on a child, just in case the passport is reported lost and a replacement issued without your knowledge. There have been a couple of parental abduction cases here in Aus in the past few years and it is a living hell for the custodial parent. You mustn't let your woolly liberalism get in the way of taking that risk seriously. One mother hired armed mercenaries to kidnap her child back - do you have the resources for that?

sparkle12mar08 · 14/06/2011 11:05

"never let xDP have our DS to himself/time together without me at his house which is pretty fucked up"

No it's not, it's frankly a very, very good idea. From everything you have posted I truly believe, along with many others, that your son is at serious risk in the presence of exp's M. You are insane if you think she wouldn't ever try it, tbh, and you have already admitted how weak your exp is in relation to her. There is not a cat in hell's chance that I would allow her within ten miles of my son without me being there, sorry. This is something you really do need to think very, very carefully about.

sparkle12mar08 · 14/06/2011 11:07

Brilliant, brilliant post Don'tGoCurly. OP, listen to her and ninedragons, this is too important!

KatieWatie · 14/06/2011 11:10

Also haven't read the whole thread but I think you're best staying well away from this woman. Even if x-DP lied about the circumcision "he's going to have it when he's 5" etc., then she's going to keep tabs on it and your DS is either going to have to lie or give the game away when he's older, causing a whole load of angst and stress for everyone. You don't need that stress.

MoreBeta · 14/06/2011 11:12

If your xP has dual cizitizenship of the UK and Pakistan he may well be able to apply for a passport for his son there without your knowledge.

From Google.

You need to go to a solicitor to get a Prohibited Steps order, a Residence order and or a Parental Responsibility order and they can advise you further on preventing your son being taken from the UK.

You also need CSA and as many other official agencies to know that you are the guardian and a formalised agreement put in place on access.

MyNameIsStacey · 14/06/2011 11:15

This hurts but I know it to be true: "You are placing your need to be seen as ultra fair and reasonable before your childs best interests."

I am not doing this now. I will be if I let xDP's M in.

It is not just about being seen to be fair - it is about feeling fair, about feeling reasonable, about feeling reconciled/at peace with your decisions. But it should be primarily about putting our DS first and if xDP cannot do that with me I have to do it alone.

Does anyone know if there is any kind of mediation to get legal contact etc drawn up? Dragging in the law will get everyone's backs up so if i could sort out some form of legal mediation (last time I studied this area was 1995 so v out of date and mostly forgotten) and we could draw up contact. I am also worried because I have no will - xDP says he doesn't either. I want to protect our DS in event anything happens to either of us.

I am now going to go and research PSOs, the whole passport situation (never occurred to me about reporting it lost and re-applying). There will be no marriage of any sort.

OP posts: