Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to ask if I should accept this 'proposal' of marriage?

286 replies

MyNameIsStacey · 14/06/2011 00:32

Namechanger. Non-troll credentials: shit pouffe; blind dates at the penguin enclosure; Box room troll; JudgeFlounce etc. I am going to try to be succinct but don't want to drip feed so bear with me please. There's a lot I could dripfeed about so this going to be really difficult.

So me and x-DP (1 DC almost 2 years old) have been split for about 10 months. He is a secret atheist but his family are Muslim. His dad died when he was 6, his mum is a religious loon. He would never be able to tell his Mum he is not a believer because her view is you are born a Muslim and he fears her reaction would kill or injure her.

On being told he was in a relationship with a white non-Muslim girl - not me his previous GF (mum is also racist - he should be marrying someone from a village from her homeland and despite living here since early 1960s is not integrated and entirely reliant on her small network of friends from home who are in the UK, which is a great source of sadness and difficulty for x-DP) she waited outside his office every evening for 2 weeks and tore at her clothes wailing when he tried to leave work. xDP was made to sleep in her bed with her until he was 13. Nothing sexual but he was effectively made to be her companion in replacement of father. He wet the bed most nights until the point at which he could sleep in his own bed. She is the epitome of an emotionally blackmailing control freak.

When I was pregnant xDP was v afraid of telling her. Once he even got very nasty with me (not physically abusive) by telling me once he told her she would be at my door every day (we didn't/don't live together) once the baby was born and she would demand to do everything and I wouldn't even get to hold the baby and there was nothing he could do about that. At the time I was scared (8 months pregnant and hormonal). In one of our few Relate session as we were parting I pointed out to him he had effectively tried to transfer his fear of her onto me during that outburst. He didn't acknowledge that but I think it struck home.

He told me that his mother would view me as an evil white whore (sounds vindictive but just reality really) and would probably not want to know her GC even if he told her. DC was born, xDP and I split up when DC was 6 months and we have reached a pretty amicable situation where xDP comes to mine straight after work 3x a week to do dinner, bath and bedtime. A few months ago he told me he had finally told his mum about existence of DC. I think she took to her bed and was ill for a bit but she didn't want to know or meet GC. My parents and I breathed a sigh of relief. xDP, not being Muslim in belief, had not applied any pressure for circumcision (and would not have got it) but has asked that DC not be allowed to pork. I have agreed for as long as DC's diet is 'controlled' by us I am happy not to feed him pork. If DC gets to his first school birthday party and scoffs a load of cocktail sausages, it will be his choice and not ours by that point. xDP agreed. DC has a registered Islamic name on BC which also has an Old Testament equivalent and is called both. DC has both our surnames to reflect both heritages. Because neither of us is religious DC won't be actively participating in any religion unless he grows to want to, happy for him to visit churches/mosques/do assembly/do 'Christmas'/ do 'Eid' all as cultural experiences with religious background but I'm afraid if he asks what it's all about I would say well some people believe this and because of that we all get a nice holiday off work. xDP is up for that.

So we're pootling along ok. I don't dislike xDP. I think he is a person trapped by his background and circumstance and while I think he is a coward for how he cannot deal with his mother (and it is a huge part of why we split) I would never want to be the reason why someone was excluded from their family, unless that was their choice. So.....skip to the end.

xDP dropped the bombshell tonight that his mother has flown in a friend from home, and this friend (who she takes all her advice from - it's a bit of a freaky Rasputin set-up where this women is believed to have religious visions and xDP's M hangs on her every word) has declare me and xDP must get married to legitimise DC in eyes of Islam. It would not be an officially legal marriage in eyes of law - more like in mum's living room with an Imam. His M is Shi'a. xDP said tonight he was 'passing this information on'. I said what was I supposed to think of that? What if I wanted to marry a Muslim in the future? He says it is just a religious ceremony to please his Mum and will enable his Mum to meet our DC and include him in her family. When we were in love xDP was adamant (as was I) that in telling his mum we were together I would not have to convert.

AIBU to refuse to do this even if it means his mum will not acknowledge our DC? Should I get 'married' to give DC a chance of relationship with grandmother?

Also a plea for advice from any Muslims out there as to what this 'marriage' is and means? (ps. I am aware that xDP's Mum is painted in an awful light - just to avoid the BNP contingent piling in, I do not see her as representative of any other Muslims I know of which there are many)

OP posts:
cottonreels · 14/06/2011 08:07

I will have to accept that in doing so (running a mile) I am denying our DC a chance at having a relationship with his GM
That's wrong. SHE is denying that relationship. Which imo is a good thing.
Your DP is scared of her. You have been (and possibly still are) scared of her. Why would you invite further opportunities to feel worried about her influence?
This sham marriage is wrong on so many levels. Its all about what it can do for her, not her GC and certainly not you.

MyNameIsStacey · 14/06/2011 08:21

MoreBeta I was just thinking that this morning, about how if there was no Muslim angle to this (difficult to imagine a ceremonial marriage without a religion being involved but say if it was a religion I felt I knew better like Catholicism) I would feel stronger about saying Not on your Nelly.

I think I feel torn because I'm a soppy liberal - that's why I feel like I want more advice from Muslims and I am being made to feel like well why wouldn't you do it? It means nothing to you and everything to her?

And when I say I want advice from Muslims it's more because I just wish I could speak to someone who could say to me (even though I think I know it), this woman is a loon and confirm that her religion plays no part in her being a loon. That's what I need to separate out in my head. The Muslim friends I have are a few old school friends via FB and someone I know in an official capacity through work (so don't want to wash too much laundry with her) but might ask her for info on a good Urdu translator.

I did not know that about Passports to the poster who pointed out I should get DS's sorted. It is in hand. xDP would have to be the person doing that (applying for passport) (he has to fill in all forms for his M and attend medical appts with her etc. she lives mostly in a Shi'a bubble in a London suburb and needs help with a lot of daily stuff and always has) and he has only recently given me his passport details to apply for our DS. I know he is weak and manipulated by his M but I cannot see him (a) ever wanting to go and live in Pakistan; (b) ever wanting to visit Pakistan without his M forcing a reason to go - I think he's been there less than 5 times in his 40 years for weddings and such.

God I wish his Dad had lived. From what I hear of his Dad, he may have been able to broker a way out of this religious lunacy.

OP posts:
Strawbezza · 14/06/2011 08:23

Definitely do not even entertain the idea of this 'marriage'. Also get your ds a passport.

If the grandmother now acknowledges she was wrong to deny the first grand-daughter who is now 13, what is she doing to build a relationship with her now?

Morloth · 14/06/2011 08:29

You don't need to broker a way out of this religious lunacy.

She can be a loon if she likes, that is her business, she can do whatever she wants.

None of this needs to be your problem. Your DS will not thank you if you let this person into his life, she will fuck with his head the way she has fucked with your xDP's.

You would be beyond gullible/stupid/naive etc to go through with this, it is a really really dumb thing to do.

Look at your ex, now look at your DS and tell me that you think she would be a positive in his life? Really?

You need to put your DS first, before this woman, before your ex and before yourself and your woolly liberalism. What he needs trumps all of that and what he needs is to not be exposed to toxic people.

Hullygully · 14/06/2011 08:41

No. For your ds's sake, no.

Finallyspring · 14/06/2011 08:42

I totally get your feeling that you would like your DS to have a relationship with his GM. And I am not as cynical as some other posters here. Grandparent relationships stand a much greater chance of being healthier than parent/child ones as they are not so complicated and intense. Your xPs mother my have had a very hard time when she arrived in the UK and these stresses may have transferred themselves to her relationships. I also think you need to be careful about judging her cultural practices as 'odd' for example her diet is quite normal in some parts of the world. This, and the fact that you have so far made a lot of effort to organise your DSs life so that he has stable and loving input from both of you leads me to think that you are a wise and affectionate person and that is why you are trying to accommodate her.

However, if you really want to do the right thing then you must not go through with the marriage. It would not be moral on two grounds. First, it is not a real marriage as you and Xp are not in a relationship anymore and secondly you do not hold the religious beliefs you will be professing. As many other people have pointed out, it is not your fault or responsibilty that your DS does not have a relationship with his GM. It is hers. You owe it to everybody to do the right thing. It will involve standing up to what sounds like two very strong personalities ( because I think your Xp is more involved in this than he appears) Do not take the same perspective as them. You are not responding negatively to them. You are responding positively by upholding the moral choice. Be strong !

MoreBeta · 14/06/2011 08:42

"he has only recently given me his passport details to apply for our DS"

Why? Are you the registered legal guardian of the child? Do NOT under any circumstances put his name on any kind of form to do with the child and especially a passport form.

You need to get a proper arrangment in place with CSA and ensure that you are the registered legal guardian and that he has no rights other than access. This whole informal arrangement you have is fine but backing it up with a 'formal' religious marriage ceremony changes it completely.

He will be able to remove the child from the country and most especially if he is married to you. All he needs is a recognised marriage certificate and a passport and no border security will ever stop him. Sharia law is increasingly being recognised in this country as an alternative legal system.

Wake up and smell the coffee!

Finallygotaroundtoit · 14/06/2011 08:53

As I said - everything you think you know about her has actually been fed to you by your DP.

Do you have any independent evidence that she actually does or says any of the crazy controlling things he says she does?

I knew a Muslim man who was terribly abusive to his white gfs, all the time feeding them a line that he couldn't commit because of his traditional parents. The parents were lovely tolerant people who knew nothing about any of it.

Trills · 14/06/2011 08:58

If it's about the grandmother: Why would you want your child to have a relationship with that woman? Just because they happen to share some DNA?

If it's about the father: you clearly don't want to be married to him. So don't get married to him.

That's two big NOs from me.

MyNameIsStacey · 14/06/2011 08:58

Oh Fuck. I know you're right Morloth. I know you're all right. I am just so sad this is all happening.

I wish xDP had spent some of the time and energy he spent trying to persuade Muslims on the internet, people he didn't even know, against what he perceives as the evils of religion, in standing up to his M. I do not understand the degree of the hold that she has over him. I never have. It is highly dysfunctional and xDP deals with it by lashing out (not physically just verbally) - I remember me idly discussing getting a dog (as I said we never lived together) and he came out with Well then my mother will never be able to visit so yours shouldn't be able to visit either. Firstly it was news to me he was contemplating us living together and secondly, the problem was dogs were dirty and Haram (opposite of Halal) and so that was why his M couldn't visit if I (we, if we were living together which is what he had been thinking about) got a dog. After our DS was born he kept saying how untidy my flat was (I am generally v untidy but I just wanted him to shut up for a bit right after labour etc) but because it was my flat he should not have to do anything.

Finally when xDP was 'passing on the message' I said what did he think about this sham marriage and he just kind of screwed up his face. I took that to mean I don't want to but I'll do what M says. But yes you're right - everything I know is second hand and filtered through him. I have thought about what is in this for him though and I have just realised that (probably) getting religiously married to me will protect him (to a certain degree - as a Muslim man I understand he will be allowed multiple marriages) from his M trying to get him to marry someone from back home (which is what his brother has done - brother does see illegitimate 13 year old DD but infrequently. She has started self-harming - when I asked xDP why that was, when I'd only heard how well she was doing up until now, he said 'abandonment issues probably with her father not being around'). If he was religiously married to a white non-Muslim already it would certainly put put his 'eligibility' down for a second Muslim marriage so I am guessing his view is that this is a good thing for him because he has always said he would resist an arranged marriage)

OP posts:
Longtalljosie · 14/06/2011 09:00

Look, take a step back. This is madness.

Do you want to undergo a religious ceremony of marriage? No? Then don't!

Never mind your ex's mother and never mind your ex - he knew what he was getting in to.

It's sad he feels he has to manage her, but don't you start.

And don't go thinking she needs to be in your child's life. She doesn't - and I think it's pretty clear she'd be a harmful influence. Why open the door to that?

It's sad your relationship with your ex may change as a result of this, but you just need to say no to your ex and distance yourself from the fallout, saying you don't want to hear about it. This is his stuff, not yours.

thumbwitch · 14/06/2011 09:04

I think Finally has a very good point - how much do you know independently about this woman?

And anyway, whatever his motivation is for telling you about this supposed marriage IT'S NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. If he wants to avoid an arranged Muslim marriage then he can tell his mum No. It's that easy, it's not your issue and please please please remember that.

TheHumanCatapult · 14/06/2011 09:06

ok i may be wrong but do not know if xdp mother still has family abroad .?.Becuase if they do and you are married under islamic law .If and its a big if but still worth bearing in mind .

In aislamic country as you are married (even if not recognised as legally binding here .His dad would have full legal rights to keep his son there or his mum especiilay if ex dp agreed with her ( and sounds like he has not enough backbone to stand up to her )

MyNameIsStacey · 14/06/2011 09:09

LongTallJosie I think that's what I am really afraid of. My refusal to marry (for all good reasons - I would be lying and making a mockery of the religion which while I don't believe in do not wish to do; it opens me and DS up to being controlled by M as xDP is; the next pressure will be circumcision and so on etc.) will turn xDP against me, just as we were getting on ok. I just don't have the strength for this now - have had a lot of own family shit going on on my side and have had to bring a discrimination claim against work for bullying and redundancy while I was pregnant. I just can't carry on fighting. Sometimes I feel like I'm in one of those Martial Arts films where the baddies are attacking from all angles and you're just a whirrrr of arms and legs. Well I am all whirred out (and I do appreciate others have/are suffering much worse - am just strung out on no sleep last night and knowing will have to talk to xDP about this tomorrow evening)

OP posts:
thumbwitch · 14/06/2011 09:13

look, he's dropped a fairly large bombshell on you. You can ask for more time to think about it. You really don't have to give him an answer immediately, and if he pushes for one just say No anyway.

If he turns nasty then he's showing his true colours and you may have to reconsider his visiting regimen. You can also warn him that if his mother has any hand in getting your DS circumcised against your wishes then you WILL have her arrested for assault.

Buda · 14/06/2011 09:16

No no no. No way no how.

Taking part in this marriage will carry far to many risks. For you and your DS.

At the end of the day it is not YOUR problem that his mother has not assimilated into UK life and society. It is not YOU denying her a relationship with your DS. It is HER. And to be honest from what you have said about her I would imagine that if you give in on this then there will be something else. And you will be under much more pressure as you gave in on this.

It would bring you nothing but trouble and I really feel you should just tell your Xp no.

GetOrf · 14/06/2011 09:18

Stacey please listen to morloth and beenbeta - they are speaking an awful lot of sense, and you are being very naive in order not to appear racist I think.

Personally I don't think your X sounds particularly nice at all. He sounds incredibly manipulative, however is blaming it all on his mother. You make reference to the cultural habit of telling people what they want to hear, saying yes yes whilst not intending to follow it through. I think that is what your EX is doing.

You need to be very careful, the whole passport conversation would put the fear of god in me frankly.

Planetofthegrapes · 14/06/2011 09:19

What's in it for you?

Someone has got an ulterior motive - please don't be a mug and go along with it.

spookshowangel · 14/06/2011 09:21

my very good friend married a muslim man she met in morroco and she is on here i will see if i can get her to come on and impart some knowledge about weddings etc. though his family all love her and their son and dont really get involved beyond the usual annoying fil stuff, if it was just going to be like that it might not be to much of a problem but i think we all know it will be pretty hardcore.

chicletteeth · 14/06/2011 09:24

No myname I am not muslim. Haven't read rest of thread beyond the first page but I hope you have gained some insight for a muslim if that's what you feel will make things clearer

chicletteeth · 14/06/2011 09:24

from a muslim

euphrosyne · 14/06/2011 09:25

I think I feel torn because I'm a soppy liberal - that's why I feel like I want more advice from Muslims and I am being made to feel like well why wouldn't you do it? It means nothing to you and everything to her?

Because it would be a dangerous farce!

Why agree to an imposed arrangement with potentially serious implications to your and DS's lives?

How far are you prepared to go to prove your liberalism? (and that is to yourself, for she/they are never going to acknowledge and appreciate it.)

Please do not it, but good luck anyhow :)

aluvss · 14/06/2011 09:26

Hi,

I'm a muslim, and from my view, I would say don't do it.

The marriage might not mean anything in the UK but it will mean something in Pakistan/India. I'm saying this because if, for some reason your XDP decided he wants to take his son back home for a visit and his mother goes as well, it could create problems for you.

I will also say that his mother sounds exactly like mine and if you were my brothers girlfriend, I would tell you to stay away, you don't need her in your life. You may think you want your children to have a relationship with the grandparents but she would do the same to your son, what she has done to her son, and she will try to pressure your XDP into getting him circumcised, or whatever.

Please don?t do it.

Morloth · 14/06/2011 09:29

You have to find the strength and you have to carry on fighting.

By simply saying 'No'. Repeat it as necessary, don't get into negotiations, there is no 'give and take' with this, just say 'No'.

If somebody wanted to cut a bit off my baby, I would be getting a restraining order. You don't even need to do that, you just need to say 'No' a lot.

I agree that you can't rely on these 'informal' arrangements any more, it is going downhill quickly.

Your Ex has already turned against you, he has put his mother's wants ahead of your needs, that is why he is an ex according to your OP. What more do you need to know about him?

slowshow · 14/06/2011 09:29

Just adding my voice to the chorus of NO. The woman is totally unhinged and your son shouldn't have anything to do with her, really. Look how she's fucked up your ex! Sleeping in the same bed with her until he was 13?

I'm also rather suspicious of your ex. I don't understand his motives here. If he's as reasonable and sensible as you say, he would dismiss this crazy idea outright. I guess it just goes to show what an iron grip his mother still has over him.