AIBU to think my ex should have said thanks?

[fuckmepinkandcallmerosie]

This is "my" weekend with the kids. Ex's sister is visiting from abroad, there is a family sunday lunch today.

He asked last night if he could have the girls to go to the dinner - I said yes of course - they've just left.

But when he arrived to collect them he just commented on DD1 outfit (That's a bit trendy) and left.

Absolutely no thanks for this, I appreciate this, or anything.

Would it have been mannerly for him to say thanks? Or AIBU?

OP (I'm sorry, I just can't address you as fuckme...not on this thread :o ) I have been here. It's just shit and as someone said earlier, until you have been here it's so hard to understand.

I was like so many people here, trying so, so hard to do the right thing for the children, but until you have met someone who truly has no morals around manipulating children, you just cannot understand it.

Your Ex sounds to me like he still needs to paint you as a total bitch. Gawd knows why, maybe to justify his own behaviour? His jump straight into 'you're so controlling....this is what you do...blah blah' is classic. It also sounds that, like me, that's a total trigger, maybe something you've even told him in the past that you hate being called? He's doing it to get a rise.

I would place money on him never intending to get those girls back on time. At no point (from what I can gather) has he shown concern over the fact that it's Sunday and they need to be at school tomorrow. It takes a child at least a couple of hours to 'come down' from an absent parent visit, no matter how regular or close everyone is, the child needs to readjust. They should have come home earlier, now they've come in from a fairly stressful situation and had to go straight to bed, knowing mum is wound up.

He did hold you to ransom, expecting you to be available to 'receive' your children at any given moment. The only example I could give would be if schools were allowed to decide, willy nilly, what time they will close. They will decide during the school day and it will be different every day - some days 1pm, other 7pm. If they think it will piss parents off, they'll get the kids to call the parents, but only after you've already left work to pick them up.

The good news is, it's pretty easy to handle it, once you get it and once you get over the co-parenting fantasy you have. He's doing it to prove you are a bitch and he also does it to receive constant attention from you - not in an 'I still love you' way, but in a 'you can't possibly be OK without me' way.

I no longer rely on my ex to do anything. If he's due to have DS and I need to make other plans (weekend away e.t.c.) I'll always have a back up babysitter. I never let him have unscheduled visits and if I want to take DS away on one of his 'contact' days, then I just tell him, via text, that DS is unavailable. He also doesn't do the things that enhance DSs social life (which he has struggled with for years) so again, DS is 'unavailable' on those days too. I will not answer the phone to him anymore unless DS is with him, I just text back saying I'm really busy and can he email whatever he needs to say, I'll pick it up asap. I hate that it's come to this, but I struggled for years and years to get him to be a decent Dad. It did more damage to DS than it did good. Everytime we set up something that was working (with me literally bending over backwards to encourage their relationship) he withdrew, sparking a massive row with me over something ridiculous.

My advice? Take control. Be the Mum that you are and make your family the priority. If he wants in, he has to be more reasonable and if he is unable to even be courteous, strike out comms to the bare functional minimum. You've given him the chance to be their Dad alongside you, he has chosen to butt against you and that is not an effective parenting team. As the parent with care it is your duty to take control.

Rant over. Thanks for listening!

Fuckmepink I totally understand why this is driving you so mad, BUT, really you have to stop letting him have this effect on you. It is you that is giving him control over your feelings. You could take an alternative stance, of 'exH is being a knob again, meh' and it would be so freeing for you. Have you considered counselling to see if you can release yourself from him?

I hope this doesn't sound unsympathetic, but you are making yourself a victim here, and your girls sound as if they are being caught in the middle (for instance there is no need for you to be texting and ringing your DD to say 'tell dad to ring me' etc. This is feeding right in to the pattern of you giving him the power to drive you mad, he will be loving this, and your DDs will not.)

I think you just need to accept that he is, and always will be an utter prick. But from what you've said on this and your other thread, he is no danger to the girls, is a 'good enough' father to them etc. So you just need to accept what you can, build in some strategies for dealing with the clothes situation, and situations where you are being kept hanging around (you received tons of good suggestions as to how to deal with these on the other thread). You'll never be able to totally sort it re clothes and inconvenience etc, but for your own sake, and the sake of your DDs and your DP, free yourself from the hold he has over you. I really wonder if counselling would be useful.

He is a knob, but you have your own life, sod him and get on with living your life to the full. His twattishness should be at the periphery of your life, not at the centre of it.

Pick your battles.

On the grand scheme of things this really doesnt matter.

I also dont think he should have to say thank you for you 'allowing' him to spend time with his children.

He so knows which buttons to push.

He drives you to the point where, because it's such a small thing and you are reacting strongly you really are acting unreasonable but it's because of the cumulative drip drip drip effect of his actions. It's like a friend whose DH leaves the loo seat up. She has a fit when he does it again when I am visiting. I think loon. She then says her DS has chucked everything in it for months incl 4 mobile phones and all sets of keys for her car so that the opening from distance thing no longer works.

So based on context YANBU.

I'm not in your position and dcs much younger but could you consider incentivising your dds to be responsible for the clothes. I think they are old enough. If the 12 yo wants to wear nice things it's her responsibility to keep on top of them. Draw a line under what's gone into the black hole to date. Tell her you can't keep replacing clothes. Get her to make a list of what she is wearing to his house and tick it off when it comes back. If you have to replace no pocket money? Ditto 10yo if she has any sense. Also could you have said you can have them but overnight? Make that the rule if he is having them into an evening? Sorry if this has all been done. Trying to show support.

YANBU.

Amber - so he can just decree that he is collecting them and dropping them back whenever he likes and me and DP have to fit our lives around his whims?

Fearne's analogy of school just randomly deciding when they'll let kids home is a good one.

As to the texting via DD Misery where you say there is no need for me to do this - I will say again, he got DD to text me, I texted her back, then texted him and phoned him and he refused to respond. Since I have the responsiblity to get them to school this morning I feel I have the right to know when they will be returned. The other option is to say he has them, he hasn't sent them back when he was supposed to and phone the police.

I originally offered for him to have them overnight last night but he has to leave this morning at 6am to do a survey on a site a distance away so he could not keep them.

Like I have said innumerable times, it doesn't matter what I do I will be the bad one. Everything you or I could think of he already has an answer to.

To give you a couple of examples. I received, via the solicitor, a spreadsheet on which he wished me to record my expenditure on the children for a 3 month period so that he could verify that I was spending the full amount of child benefit on the children.

He used to have a spreadsheet on which I was expected to record all miles I travelled in my car, each individual journy, where I went and this would be cross referenced with fuel put in the car and cross referenced again with the miles per gallon he expected me to do in the car. If the results did not tally I was held to account for the additional miles I travelled.

He sounds a bit spreadsheet obsessed!

I can see this from his point of view as well. He just wants to enjoy the day with his kids, forgets to say thanks (did you want him to kiss your feet as well?!) and then when they want to stay longer asks his child to text you and doesn't hear the phone when you call him first time.

I think you are massively overreacting and are actually being the one who is being controlling. Yes he should have called you himself about staying later but that is the only thing he has done wrong. Your dc is obviously capable of sending text messages so he probably thought that would be ok.

You seem to be hanging onto a lot of anger and that's not good for your children. You need to move on and behave like an adult. Seriously . . . your original post was because he didn't say thank you! For christ sake grow up!

So he's a controlling fuckwit?

Poor you Rosie, I really feel for you. I'm a bit baffled by those people who think you're being controlling but they've obviously never dealt with unreasonable or deeply selfish or childish adults.

Can you:

• add an additional bolt to the door which DD doesn't have a key for so she can't return to get clothing on his days?
• text him to say he will need to return the clothes from the weekend?
• send a solicitors letter stating that any items sent with the girls (clothes etc) need to be returned with the girls at end of his time?
• tell him to fuck the fuck off over the spreadsheet?

I really, really hope your DP now is lovely :)

I have already accepted I should have said no to the day in the first place and that i was BU to expect thanks.

BUT to those of you who say I am controlling - am I seriously expected to send my kids away for the day with him with no idea of when he will be returning them?

As to the lovely family day out - his sister has come from abroad, I'm sure she didn't just get up on Friday morning and decide to come from the other side of the world. He is bound to have known she was coming, and he is bound to have had months of noticed when he could have asked in advance to swap a weekend, or have them an additional night instead of the night before at 9.30pm. Is that not controlling?

Do you not think the spreadsheets are controlling?

He never answers is phone when I ring, especially if he knows he's late returning them - as I said, he has form for returning them 2, 3 even 4 hours late and not answering his phone.

I can't add a bolt to the door, it's a upvc front door. I have asked the girls to get the clothes the next time they are at his, but if it is anything like the other times I have asked, he will refuse to let them leave with the clothes in bags to go to school as he feels it humiliates him. That then leads to me having to go to his house and ask for their return, whereupon he can't just lay his hands on them and I am being controlling and putting him under pressure.

rosie, your ex sounds like a complete tosser. I really feel for you, just reading this thread and the background, made me feel angry for you, the spreadsheet thing topped it off. I wouldnt send any clothes with the girls on his days, just what there wearing, so he will have to use all the stockpilled stuff. I also think its really disgusting to return the children without shoes, or there original clothing( especially whrn he told you to dress them appropriatly) why didnt he get them to change back? i can only assume he does this sort of thing to piss you off!! good luck! x

He sounds like an utter knob.

The girls will come and go in uniform arghh for the next week or two but the problems come with situations like yesterday - this happens every single time, they go on a day out with him dressed nicely and come back in old shite. And WRT DD2, he actually kept her clothes from her school trip and even the suitcase I sent the clothes in - actually he kept everything in the case, even her toothbrush and the wee small shampoos and conditioners I sent.

I don't want the kids to suffer, as I've said, and I won't let the kids suffer which is why this happens - if I just let them be unhappy then it wouldn't happen but I won't do that.

DP is lovely btw, really lovely, and his plan is that we will hit Primani the next weekend we have them and buy the entire shop (he will pay) and then there won't be a problem

And I've had counselling, and read every self help book under the sun. If you've read Lundy Bancroft, he's a Water Torturer.

From Lundy Bancroft

"'The water torturer?s style proves that anger doesn?t cause abuse. He can assault his partner psychologically without even raising his voice He tends to stay calm in arguments, using his own evenness as a weapon to push her over the edge. He often has a superior or contemptuous grin on his face, smug and self-assured. He uses a repertoire of aggressive conversational tactics at low volume, including sarcasm, derision, such as openly laughing at her ? mimicking her voice, and cruel cutting remarks. ?he tends to take things she has said and twist them beyond recognition to make her appear absurd, perhaps especially in front of other people. He gets to his partner through a slow but steady stream of low-level emotional assaults?He is relentless in his quiet derision and meanness.

The impact on a woman of all these subtle tactics is that either her blood temperature rises to a boil or she feels stupid and inferior?she may end up yelling in frustration, leaving the room crying or sinking into silence?.(he) then says ?See, you are the abusive one, not me?You?re the one who is yelling and refusing to talk?I wasn?t even raising my voice. It?s impossible to reason with you?.

The psychologicayl effects of living with the WT can be severe. His tactics can be difficult to identify, so the sink in deeply. Women can find it difficult not to blame themselves for their reactions to what their partner does if they don?t even know what to call it?How do you seek support from a friend?when you don?t know how to describe what is going wrong?

...The WT tends to genuinely believe that there is nothing unusual about his behavior. When his partner starts to confront him with his abusiveness?he looks at her as if she were crazy and says, ?What the hell are you talking about?

?.Friends and relatives who have witnessed the couple?s interactions may back him up. They shake their heads and say to each other, ?I don?t know what goes on with her. She just explodes at him sometimes, and he?s so low-key??.She may start to wonder if there is something psychologically wrong with her.

?.His moves appear carefully thought out, and he rarely makes obvious mistakes ? such as letting his abusiveness show in public?

?You may struggle for years trying to figure out what is happening. You may feel that you overreact to his behavior and that is isn?t really so bad. But the effects of his control and contempt have crept up on you over the years. If you finally leave him, you may experience intense periods of delayed rage, as you become conscious of how quietly but deathly oppressive he was.

...This style of man rarely lasts long in an abuser program?He tends to rapidly decide that his group leaders are as crazy as his partner and heads for the door."

YANBU, he sounds incredibly selfish.

Even with the nicest of exes, clothes can be a problem. It only takes a few unreturned outfits, or things returned badly stained, and suddenly you are caught short, spending out money you don't have for replacements. PinkSchmoo's idea sounds a great one now your DDs are older. Once they know there are consequences for them of not bringing their clothes home, they'll start to look after them and nag their dad to remember. Think of it as if they keep leaving clothes at school or swimming lessons and get them to take responsibility. That way, it also doesn't matter so much if your DDs do come back when you are out and pick stuff up.

As for the unplanned visits, change of drop offs etc, either you're both very reasonable about it or, again, you need to be firm - sometimes your DDs may miss out on a family event but, hey, I'm sure swimming with you and your DP will be equally fun. And, you never know, once the message gets through that weekends are not negotiable, you might find his family start to schedule get-togethers on 'his' weekends, not yours.

Scroop - I have had items returned with mould on them because they were swimming things and he didn't wash them.

Again from Lundy Bancroft :

 The central attitudes driving the Water Torturer are:
 You are crazy.  You fly off the handle over nothing.
I can easily convince other people that you?re the one who is messed up
As long as I?m calm, you can?t call anything I do abusive, no matter how cruel
  I know exactly how to get under your skin.
 If you would just accept that I know what?s right, our relationship would go much better.  Your own life would go better, too.
 When you disagree with me about something, no matter how respectfully or meekly, that?s mistreatment of me.
  If I put you down for long enough, some day you?ll see.

In answer to your question.

YABU to expect thanks. You said "yes" for the girls sake, not to do him a favour. You should not expect anything from him because he wasn't part of the reason you let him have them.

Just read your post about the mileage. Somewhat anal but then you do the same with the clothes and times returned (obviously without the legal back up).
He wasn't going to bring the girls back really late as he had to be away early in the morning.
As for" I'm always in the wrong" - with whom? Why do you care so much about what he thinks?
It's not just unreasonable people that don't stick to times by the way. I have had lots of friends, my parents bring my DS back later than then said and it is annoying even if it is for the right reasons. You don't need to always think he's out to get you. You you think he even cares that much?

Justonemorethen - I don't think he has EVER brought the kids back on time. EVER.

All I meant was that no matter what I did yesterday I was going to be in the wrong, if I said no, or if I agreed for him to take them. I do not for one second believe that he was out of the house at 6 this morning.

As a for example (again) when we used to have him picking the kids up here, he was supposed to get them for 5, and feed them their tea at his house. I would have them ready, have done homeworks etc, and have them here waiting. And waiting. I would wait 45 minutes, then text to say "Are you going to be much longer" No reply. I would feed the kids (hassle if I'd thought I didn't have to) and wait. And wait. He would arrive maybe 6.30 and say "I got caught in a meeting". By which time my plans with DP would be buggered if we had booked to go out, or on one famous occasion I'd organised to go to the cinema with my mate and he turned up at 7.30.

They were supposed to be back to me for 9, again I would wait and wait and with school the next day, 10 was average. Sometimes he would return them early if it didn't suit and if I wasn't in would phone me ranting that I had a responsiblilty to the children to be here.

And yes if they were younger I could refuse to send them, but at their age they know he's coming, they are not babies and it's difficult. I have done it, and within 2 days I have a solicitors letter about me being unreasonable WRT contact and not sticking to the schedule.

I've never been in a relationship like this, but I do get what the OP is saying. I have seen this kind of relationship with someone else, and you have my sympathy, although I can't suggest any ways of dealing with it.

I don't think you're being anal about the clothes, and the times returned. especially the clothes. My dd is 11 and I try not to buy too many clothes as she's still growing. It would only take one or two outfits that go missing for dd to suddenly have very little to wear outside of school and it does cost a bit to go and buy new ones when your funds are planned for something else.

Darts - that's it exactly, both girls go to school in uniform so they don't have masses of other clothes, and both are growing so I don't want to have to buy too many.

And WRT to the times returned, were me and DP genuinely supposed to sit about here all evening just waiting for ex to return them whenever suited him? Would any of you accept that? Oh yes sure take the kids for the day but don't tell me if you're bringing them back before tea and I'll have to feed them, or after tea, or so late they'll be knackered for school the next morning?

i've read your threads before, and commented on one ages ago about the clothes issue as i had similar with my ex.

Recently i had a relative visiting from abroad. When she came last year she was only 'local' on one day and ex had already made arrangements so i couldn't take DS to see her. I was fine with that. This year i made plans the night before (so yes short notice) and asked ex if could have DS for an hour to go and see her and he was fine with it, and in fact told me to take as long as i needed. I did say thank you, in person and again later on in a text. So you're not being unreasonable to expect a thanks for giving up 'your' time with the girls.

This is about so much more though and I don't know how you deal with it.

You can't protect your kids from this forever though, and it's noble that you're trying but it's all going to become very unhealthy for them. With the 12 year old especially i think you need to stop sheltering her from her father's behaviour, and equip her to deal with him herself. She's pretty soon going to become a stroppy teenager and I do think that with the clothes issue in particular you need to hand this to her.
If she is so bothered about what she wears then it's time you enabled her to stand up to her dad about it. I'm pretty hard where this is concerned (and yes my son is only 5) but I have upset him in the past by not letting him wear what he wants to his dad's on drop off because the good stuff never comes back here. I told him quite bluntly that I need to keep this stuff here, so he has nice clothes to wear when we go out at weekends.
I would send the 12 year old back in the grotty 70's stuff and make no bones about the fact that this is because dad kept the good stuff, and if she doesn't like it to take it task with him because he is the one who keeps making this situation arise.

I really do understand where you're coming from, but you are taking too much 'ownership' of the responsibility not to let this affect your children. It's time you started to really let them see what an arse their dad is.

(for what it's worth my mother completely lied to me about the sort of person my bio dad is, and when the truth came out I was furious with her. I had been quite awful to my mum about her keeping me away from this man, because she seemed entirely unreasonable in doing so when in fact she was right not to let me near the feckless idiot. That has had deep repercussions on me as a person and damaged my relationship with my mum beyond repair)

" You have every right to demand that he speaks to you and doesn't pass messages through the children. They should not be the conduit through which you have your arguments or make arrangements. It's damaging to children. All the research demonstrates this"

Genuine question as I'm interested in what people think - until what age do we think the above statement is relevant. For example, would it be considered appropriate for a 15 or 16 year old to be able to make arrangements with his father?