To be furious that a male nursery worker took DD to the toilet today

[heyhoplaydough]

I have always felt that it is inappropriate for male members of staff to change babies nappies or take young children to the toilet without a female chaperone. As a paediatric nurse I know that it is common policy for male doctors, nurses and other healthcare professionals to have a female chaperone present when examining or carrying out treatments on children, if their parents are not present. Adult female patients are also given female chaperones during examinations where they are undressed. This is to protect their dignity and to spare embarrassment on both sides.

Why are these basic measures not in place in childcare settings?

On joining this specific nursery, I was assured that only female members of staff change nappies or take children to the toilet. I explicitly wrote in my DD's file, that she is only to be changed or taken to the toilet by female members of staff. Each time she has moved up to a new room within the nursery I have explicitly told her key carers the same.

I regularly ask my DD whether she went to the toilet and who took her, along with other questions about her day, like who she played with, what activities she did, what she had for lunch etc. Today she told me that the only male member nursery nurse took her to the toilet, without any other staff. She also said that she wiped herself and pulled her own knickers up, and does not seem at all upset, so I am confident that nothing untoward happened. However, I feel this was entirely inappropriate, and there were several female members of staff available to take DD to the toilet instead. I am absolutely furious that my wishes as her parent were not followed. Am I being unreasonable?

Haven't read anything apart from the OP and first few YABVU - what is the world coming to that its always assumed men who want to care and look after children are pervs.

I never mentioned feminsits I said I was palying mumsnet bingo. If I typed anything else FFS it was the bloody auto correct going mad again. Bloody hell I AM NOT ACCUSING FEMINISTS OF ANYTHING

Do you want the fishfingers next for the other bump?

heyho why on earth did you post if you didnt want to listen to the "mob". Surely you knew what MN was about and how it worked? Were you expecting people to actually agree with you? I dont believe that for one second.

Just wondering if it has occured to you that your precious dd could possibly grow up and marry one of those disgusting males and OMG actually give birth to one herself? And you do know that you actually slept with one dont you? The filthy being that he must be!

Can anyone explain to me, that if we have the choice that Primalscream says we have ,why it means that women have the choice and men don't?

It appears perfectly OK to say 'only a woman must change my DDs nappy or take them to the toilet but of course a DS can have a woman do both'.

Boys have no such choice, the lack of male nursery workers mean that you can't insist they have a man. (I'm not surprised there is shortage)

Women appear innocent until proved guilty and men guilty until proved innocent.

It rubs off on society, shown on here, where perfectly nice men will leave a lost DC in distress rather than risk helping. I know that DH is very aware and very careful to keep his distance.

No one explaining then?

Havent read the whole thread but YABU.
Surely if your DD needed the toilet and a woman wasn't free to take her then it's better for a male nursery worker (not some random guy off the street) to take her rather than leaving her uncomfortable?
Apologies if this has been pointed out but what about the recent case of the female nursery worker who was abusing children while taking them to the toilet?
Male does not automatically = child abuser.

I am off out. I will hope that someone can tell me why DDs have the choice of a member of the same sex taking them and yet no one bats an eye that DSs have no choice and have the opposite sex.

I said men should have the choice too.
In your rush to bring about total equality between the sexes ( which we will never have ) you take away freedom and choice which has been clearly demonstrated on this thread - anyone agreeing with the op is 'wrong' - despite the nursery totally disregarding a parents wishes.

Firstly, OP - if you wanted reasonable debate, perhaps you should have tried to engage with the posters asking questions about your reasons, myself included. Instead you have simply exhibited over and over the exact mentality of the sort of person who would join a baying mob.

Secondly, why do people persist in the "oh poor working mums who have no choice but to use nurseries" line? Bollocks to that. I work because we are better off with me working and because I choose to do so. When baby number 2 comes along in a few months I will continue to give DS as much nursery time as I can afford because he enjoys it, because it is good for him, and because it will allow me to continue with some work from home. I wasn't hurt by Beesimo's comments - I was angry. I guess that means her apology wasn't for me.

Thirdly, and I need to rant about this before my head explodes, the OP is unfortunately not alone in these views. I just did the nursery run and I was listening to Heart (Bristol radio station) and this subject was being discussed. The male presenter repeatedly stated that he would not allow his daughter to go to a nursery with a male staff member. He kept bleating on about it being "my personal preference" but peppering the conversation with suggestions that it was strange and inappropriate. He spoke to the manager of a nursery and asked her why so few men were nursery nurses. At this point I was screaming at the radio "because of people like you!". His female sidekick then had a bit of a giggle about the idea of her husband doing something "unmanly" like nursery nursing. The final thing I heard was him telling a male trainee nursery nurse that he should "pack it in right now" because "the stigma will follow you around". At this point I actually nearly crashed the car.

I am off to complain. I have never complained about anything on radio/tv/newspaper in my life but I am bloody well doing it now. Personal preference, my arse. It stops being a matter of personal preference when you make it a matter of public comment. What would have happened if he had said he didn't think women should be doctors/lawyers/soldiers? All hell would have broken loose. What if he had said "I don't want my daughter looked after by a black staff member. It's my personal preference"? You can have any bloody preference you like, but it doesn't give you the right to go peddling hysteria on the radio.

And breathe.

Yank, what is it about the Mormons? I know several and they're all ridiculously good-looking as well. Maybe it's the generations of clean living...

I lurked on this thread last night and I do find the views of a minority of the posters really worrying. My DD is 3 and has been at nursery since she was 6 months. She had always been absolutley fine with my male friends and whenever any parent, male or female, entered her room at nursery she always like to stand up and shout "hiya" at them. So both the nursery and I were really shocked by her reaction when they had a male nursery worker join when DD was about 1. She was terrified of him. We could not explain it. I made a point of talking to him so DD could see I was happy with him. After he had been there about 2 weeks, I was really pleased to arrive one afternoon to collect DD and see that she was sitting on his lap. Should I have been horrified that my DD was sitting on a man's lap? My DD is very affectionate. I often see her sitting on the laps of female staff and giving them hugs. So why should she treat a male member of staff any differently?

It did not occur to me to ask about who was changing DD's nappy. I would imagine that the man was not expected to change her nappy at first. It would have been very hard on both my DD and him to have expected him to pick up a clearly scared child.

DD is still more shy around strange men compared to strange women. I do not know why. I suspect it may be because DH works away alot so she is surrounded by females more. However DD treats all equally when it comes to her complete lack of inhibitions. Just the other day she ran up to one of our male friends to show him her new spotty knickers. I did stop her, but only to explain that we do not usually display our knickers in the middle of a public park.

Sadly DD's nursery does not have any male staff at the moment. I wish they did. It would help DD to overcome her fear of men and provide her with a male role model when DH is away.

I do feel for those of you with DSs. How awful for them to be growing up in a world that thinks it is 'natural' to be suspicious of their intentions.

I have worked with SN older children. I think this is an entirely different matter. As children grow they do become more self-concsious of their bodies. I am less keen on having a male doctor perform intimate examinations on me, so choose a female when possible. So once a child is aware of what we do not normally show in public, and why, I think it is reasonable that they can choose who cares for them.

I don't agree with the OP but it is a valid point, to some extent. In the case of babies it is now becoming policy that babies nappies are not changed out of complete view or access from other workers, to lessen the chance of young children being removed to be abused (by both male and female).

'Vunerable adults' are supposed to be given personal care by two workers and they cannot both be male, if the patient is female. This stems from the old law where sexual abuse wasn't as recognised as it is now, as an offence. Some acts that are now illegal, once wasn't. So rape and abuse was just penatrive sex (male rape, again, never used to be leglislated for).

The idea was that only a female could then be 'raped' as a male would have to be partly consenting (by erection).

I can see were the OP is coming from, as she works in healthcare and under directives, which while they apply to adults, they don't to children.

The idea that males do not need to have choice stems also from an old fashioned idea that naturally everyone (but still mainly true today) is given 'personal care' by their mother or a female. Realistically we cannot offer that choice because there are not enough male staff, which is for a variety of reasons.

They can't have the choice though because there are not enough male nursery workers and there won't be enough male nursery workers while people ask the question 'why would a male nursery worker want to take a girl to the toilet?' .No one asks a woman, 'are you working with young children because you want to take them to the toilet?' I suspect that when people want to work with young DCs that toilets arejust a necessary part of the job.
It is a vicious circle.

I expect it is the same in hospital, women can request a female nurse but a man can only request one-if there are enough.

It would be good for people to read your experience ChiddelyPie-I refuse to bring my DCs up thinking the world is a bad place and the only person saving them from it is mother! That not only can't a man take a 3 yr old to the toilet but a 7yr old DS has to go into the Ladies.

Can I also please add to Bucharests request of answering some questions and have mine answered-

Why the hell have you sent your child to a nursery with a male worker in it if you are so uptight about him doing what I would perceive as part of his job ?????

We need to decide on two issues.

1. Is abuse more likely in adult care then that is the reason the rules do not apply across the board.
2. If it is a 'safeguarding' issue, do we think that any child should be put at 'risk' at all or just seek to minimise 'risk'.

Personally i think that most of the problems in social care ca be solved by better management and more staff.

I have just read your post kungfupannda-I am furious-to put it mildly.

I'm thinking about this again and trying to imagine a conversation with a 4 year old where I could ask how was your day, did you have a nicebreak , what did you get for lunch, who did you play with, did you go to the toilet, who took you, did he wipe your bum, did he see your fanjo, did he pull up your knickers

And think that was a normal conversation where it just was "casually" dropped into the conversation.

voddie- the OP doesn't have to make that choice because what is stated in the care plan should be followed. She, as i said works in healthcare, to ignore wishes in the care plan is actually 'illegal' (disiplinary matter or fine), so it may not occur to her thaty it would happen in other sectors. Care plans and IEP come under directives and guidence from the government. Anyone should be safre in a social care setting. I think the difference is that fact that she is a nurse (and probably a good one by her wanting procedure followed).

That's one of the most outraged posts I've ever read of yours kfp :o

What a silly OP. I agree with the hundreds of posters who've said the nursery is at fault for giving any oxygen to your prejudices.

Sometimes I worry that MN is representative of what quite a lot of people believe which is scary.

SGM - yes, that is very odd isn't it? How can I be a man-hater and yet at the same time sincerely believe that most men are not paedophiles and rapists?

The big mistake was giving the care plan-hopefully they will learn and not do it in future.

I do think greater attention has to be paid to the design of some nurseries. I cannot work how anyone would manage to abuse a child at DD's nursery. In each room, the nappy changing area / toilets are pretty open. For the baby room there is just a stair gate separating it from the room. For each of the rooms for older children I have never seen the door closed. The rooms for children over 2 have toilets as well as a nappy changing area all in one place. So there is an endless stream of children coming in and out all the time.

Another reason why nurseries cannot exclude one person from nappy changing duties: at DDs nursery the person who is on nappy changing / toilet duty is not allowed to serve food at all that day. So they cannot suddenly switch who is doing each task. I think this is a good bit of infection control. Personally I think the risk of DD getting ill from poor infection control is far greater than the risk of abuse.