to ask how many allowances should be made for SN kids?

[PiousPrat]

DS1 is 11 and has a dx of ADHD and is undergoing investigation for Aspbergers. For the most part he adapts to the mainstream way of doing things and we have managed to find coping strategies for him that aren't disruptive for other people and don't draw attention to him unduly. He is however easily distracted, zones out a lot and processes things differently from his peers so despite seeming 'normal' for the most part, he obviously struggles with some things.

There have been a few occasions in the last year that have really riled me at the time, but looking back I wonder if I am being unreasonable in expecting other people (mainly his teachers or parents of his peers, he doesn't really encounter problems with his own age group) to give him a bit of extra time or help rather than getting wound up at him, writing him off as lazy or just excluding him from things.

As an example of the sort of thing I mean, and also the most recent; DS1 goes to scouts. The scouts go canoeing on a local stretch of water every week during the summer. We have a lift share system in place whereby one mum takes 5 of them to the canoeing, stays and brings them home as a) she is a parent helper and b) it is far enough away that it isn't worth leaving and coming home just to go back for them. In exchange for doing this, she then gets out of taking and fetching for the actual scout meetings for the whole year so it actually works out pretty even in terms of times each person takes.

DS1 can be quite slow in getting changed. He gets distracted, he sits and zones out after every piece of clothing unless he is kept on task. As a result of this, the first week they went canoeing the other 4 were waiting for him for nearly 15 minutes. I spoke to DS about it, we came up with ways he could be quicker and I tasked his brother to help in chivvying him along. Next week it took him 10 minutes longer than the others. Not great that they are kept waiting, but an improvement and a sign that he is putting some effort in. I still didn't think it very fair for the others to be kept hanging around, so I spoke to the leaders about sticking their head in the changing room if they got a chance, to remind him of what he needs to be doing and also got him a wetsuit so he only had one thing to take off, then lose and have to find again before finally stuffing it in his bag instead of a whole outfit.

Because he still came out after the others (the leaders didn't have time to pop in and hustle him along) the other mum is now refusing to take him at all. For the sake of those 10-15 minutes, he is missing out on the entire canoeing session which makes up a big part of the group bonding for his scout troup, which is his only social activity.

AIBU to think that it wouldn't kill her to cut him some slack, or perhaps knock on the changing room door herself and keep him on task? Or that the other kids having to wait a bit isn't actually the end of the world and it wouldn't do them any harm to learn a bit of tolerance?

I honestly seem to have lost all perspective on this, as i keep flitting between 'zomg my poor PFB, they are all so mean to him' and 'fair enough, he is inconveniencing other people, he should suck it up and accept it'

I have my big girl pants on, I can take it if the overall response is that I ABU about this specific example, but it also leaves me wondering how much it is reasonable to expect other people to make allowances for those with problems, especially invisible ones (assuming of course that they know about them)

I suppose I am cynical about op because i've been on the other end of this scenario where you help someone out because it is the right thing to do then more and more is asked and then you realise there are others like you running round after someone who is making no attempt to be proactive and do anything for themselves.

In fairness, someone seeking a dual dx of ADD and AS will have had to be proactive as generally a dual dx is not offered.

Actually I would wait 10 mins for an sn child (and do) but you don't know what this other womans' arrangements are. Plus the expectations are that this woman should do what the child mother, father, and grandmother can't or won't do. I just think that is unreasonable yes people should offer, but you can't make long term arrangements relying on other peoples good will it makes then feel used. it may be wrong but that is the way it is.

Ask the scout leaders if they have someone in Explorers or Network who could come along every week and help your son. In return, they get free canoeing!

This is how we managed one of our young disabled kids - we had lad doing his DofE service with us whose responsibility was to take care of our disabled lad. He would push his wheelchair/carry him up ski slopes/piggy back him when we reached a bit he couldnt manage and generally be a big brother with the lad as his sole responsibility.

They formed a great friendship.

I would like to say that Scout Leaders go to the ends of the earth to be inclusive, but we simply do not have the manpower to cope with every child in every situation - especially if you have 23 other kids in your care who also need watching.

We recently had to offer a place to a SN child on condition that his parents joined as leaders and attended with him. We already have large numbers of kids with additional needs - from ADHD, ASD, Hypermobility, CF, anaphalaxic allergies, asthmatics etc. We simply could not handle another one without help.

Id also like to make a point about the OPs situation. Its not just the mum and the kids being inconvinienced here - its the leaders.

The leaders will have spent considerale time ensuring the kit is all at the site, that all the equipment is in good nick, that the leaders on duty have the appropriate training. They will have gone to the site and risk assessed the activity formally.

They will have been there at least 30 minutes before you arrive, and will have to stay until the last kid leaves.

They will very often have arrived on site straight from work, having eaten no supper. They may not have seen their own kids. Or their own kids may have eaten beans on toast for dinner because its all there is time for.

They will not want to be left waiting for your son, because they too are tired, hungry and stressed. They may have their own kids on site who are tired and cold and wanting to go home, but cannot, because mum/dad has to wait until all the kids in their charge have been collected.

At the end of the ecvening, they will be lucky if even one parent thanks them for taking care of their child and giving him or her fantastic opportunities.

And they are unpaid volunteers.

But wheredid the other mother receives free lifts as an exchange agreement.

So whilst I would agree if that were the case in terms of being just a generous offer, in this case it's not.

Other mum is covering her lifts she just can't wait longer. She would continue to take DS2.

I think I read further back that he was getting out of the pool earlier by 15 minutes and still not ready 15 minutes later than the others.

Everyone is quick to vilify the other parent but we need to tackle the actual dressing or what OP can practically do to best resolve this situation for her son.

Well she's had some good suggestions from Jacky et al but she hasn't returned so we don't know whether she'd be up for making any changes.

The tone which made me persist yesterday was that OP could sit at home (because she doesn't drive) whilst everyone else - her mum, the other mum, the brother, the scout leaders, the other children all took responsibility for getting DS1 dressed. Learn to drive! Do something proactive! You really can't be that dependent on others.

What's also amiss is the fact that the scout leaders have agreed that they can't take him. Makes me think does he need far more support than is being said? From my experience of our scout leaders, they do go to great lengths to ensure the kids have a great time and that everyone gets a fair chance. Saying 'no' would be a big deal (in our group anyway). So implied intolerance or discrimination is just tosh.

Hatti that is entirely variable.

have led many groups inclusding rainbows: if waiting ten minutes was what it would take to make us inclusive then I would do it gladly.

Agree of course about no thanks; even got shouted out that I should be paid less (what less than zero? In fact at that stage was costing me ££££ as we had moved 50 miles away but nobody would take over so I was holding and waiting). Thanks makes a massive difference.

it's about (legally and morally) reasonable adaptation: 10 - 15 minutes is reasonable. Over thirty may not be dependent on circs.

Yes but the other mothers reciprocate the op doesn't because she can't drive maybe all the mums in the car share feel this way but only this woman has said something about it.

OP I don;t know your circs but if appropriate and dobale family fund might finance driving lessons

If he goes in his wetsuit could he not just dry down his wetsuit after the session with a towel rather than get fully changed?

Why doesn't his brother help him get dressed if he is going with him?

Personally I think you need to learn to drive (unless there is a reason why you can't). An extra 15 minutes can be a drag when you've already been hanging around for a bit.

Do you tell her you appreciate her help? She may be thinking it is okay for you since you get to stay at home and relax, because conveniently you can't drive (as she might view it) while she's having to drive your DSs to canoeing and then hang around for an extra 15 minutes after the session.

wheredid dosn;t her mum cover her duties?

So tehre is reward there

brass, a scout leader cannot take a child in his/her car because of child protection issues , but also insurance.

If you carry a kid in your car, you have to have special permission from your insurers, and its costs more to insure your car.

Also, you may not be alone with a child. this is drilled into every scout leader and helper - never get yourself into a situation where an allegation couldbemade about you. Therefpore there wouldneed to be two adults in the car.

Also, as a leader, its not my responsibility to get a child to and from event especially if there is an adult capable of driving but finds it inconvinient.

We don;t know she is capable hatti, many reasons why people cannot drive: poverty and caring be a huge link of course, but others as well such as poor vision (my own is borderline and without DH I would have to stop driving if it deteriorates further)

I read that as Grandma collects her son from scouts does she do all the others as well? If so maybe there is more to this situation. but i still thinks it's unfair to put the responsibility of a child to attend canooing lessons onto a random women.

op has explained why she cant drive.

i was referring to granny, who normally collects, but doesnt want to stay for the whole evening of canoing - did I read that wrong originally?

very good points Hatti - from some of the other posters the whole world should stop for one child regardless of their own lives and whether they should put their own children first.

In this case as wheredidyou says the OP, her mum and possibly a DH if there is one aren't prepared or available to do it themselves.

I am all for helping and I do at scouts sometimes, though mostly I help at school but I wouldn't put another child before mine. My children are my responsibility. I think OP needs to own her responsibility in this particular situation a bit more than she is.

Hatti I'm in complete agreement with you!

oh how did I miss that? why doesn't OP drive?

I re-read the thread and can't see where the OP said why she can't drive.

Even as a parent of a PFB with ASD I am, like brass, amazed that the responses are that sibling, friends, friends Mum, Granny and scout leaders should all inconvenience themselves by 15 minutes waiting whilst wet and tired from canoeing, yet the childs own parents have no ownership of doing anything to find a solution.

YANBU.

My son has aspergers/adhd, and is ALWAYS the last to get ready at the end of any activity. I think it can be difficult for people to understand that with these type of issues there can be a huge contrast between areas of ability and areas of difficulty. My son is an academic high achiever, but at 10 years old has genuinely only recently been able to get himself dressed. Does the other mum understand why this is an area of difficulty for your son?

It can sometimes be useful for our son to practice the order he has to get ready in, and even to use visual clues to help him to remember what order to put things on, and to talk about rewards for getting ready as quickly as he can, but sometimes he just gets distacted. He also has an older brother who knows to give him a nudge when he loses focus, but he still tends to be last.

I can't believe anyone is so busy they resent waiting for 15 minutes in order to ensure that a child who is at risk of social exclusion gets to join in an activity. If you explain to the other mum what you are doing to try to improve things from your end, and make it clear that this is a genuine problem, not just arsing about, then maybe that will help her to understand that you (and your son) are doing your best.

Sadly, she may still say she can't do it, but that's because some people are selfish gits have different priorities, but you are still definitely not BU.

yes it's very selfish to put your own circumstances first.

because whilst you're tending to everyone else's needs the elves are going to come and sort your responsibilities out.

The other parent is not obliged to wait another 10 minutes for your son or put herself out in any way, BUT I don't know anyone who wouldn't. 10 minutes waiting is such a minor thing that I can't believe it has been mentioned and her refusal to take him leaves me speechless! Some people are so vile, I hope that she comes across others as selfish as herself who won't spare 10 minutes for her kids then she may take a long hard look at herself but people like that never do...........
Can the scout leaders do anything to help? I am sure that they wouldn't want one of their group to miss out all summer over someone so mean and petty something so minor

But Brass what about if you reverse this then/

say the other mum posted 'there is a lady whose son takes 15 minutes extra becuase he ahs SN. AIBU to say i can't manage this? I still want to her mum to cover lifts for me mind'.

Of course as OP hasn't some back there's a lot of info missing and we're all latching on different bits here. We don;t know if she can't frive becuase she isn;t legally allowed, can''t afford to (which is pretty prevetative after all) or just chooses not to.

We don;t know if the other mum is illing to forego her side of the lift bargain.

We don't know what actions OP has tried to utilise to speed things up.

justGetEm think your point about social exclusion is valuable. There's also anohter point buried in here: if the other mum can wait, if she is not being delayed for a night shift or a real reason, then by doing so it is not just gving: it passes a very valuable lesson to her own children about tolerance.

Alsi i'd say selfishness is an unfair call: if Mum was asking for soemthing for herself ehre but it's for ehr child and his chances which is a different thing. We have a responsibility to fight for our child's life chances. Now once upon a time Social services may well ahve provided access to a carer to assist but there's sod all chance of that now.

The obvious solution is for the leaders, parents and anyone else who wants to work out the most they can give (eg I can pay X towards hire of a carer to speed him up- OP, have you got DLA in place?0 and sit down and talk. Leader might have a young leader who can do a bit of support, other mum might says she can wait 5 mnutes but not ten. It's dialogue that works.