TO SAY Camerons Policies are in danger of getting all disabled people labelled as "Scroungers"

[ScousyFogarty]

That is a wicked thing do do and David Cameron beeds to apologise or more likely get one of his flunkies to say SORRY

Your rape analogy is wrong for the following reason.

To prove rape, you have to prove an event which happened in the past, usually with no witnesses or papertrail. You have to meet Crown Court standards of beyond reasonable doubt.

To prove benefit fraud, you can start investigating during the commission of the suspected crime. So you can sit outside their house watching them do it and compare to the detailed paperwork stating what they can and can't do. You also simply decide with your colleagues that it's fraud and stop their claim. You might or might not bother to test the evidence by prosecuting.

Thisisanicecage- I can't disagree re. the statistics being wrong as I wasn't personally involved in the trial- goodness knows what happened behind the scenes. Yes I agree, the fraud checks could well be why it is so low.

However, I know of 4 people who claim DLA. 2 are fraudulent- why the disparity?! One even boasted of ''knowing what to say''. Please don't say it must just be the type of people I associate with- I hasten to add I know this particular idiot through someone else, not personally!

why is my disabled husband and disabled son (dh disabled in iraq) ds autistic why are they less important to the general public and the government that prisoners than fraud amongst themselves why cant i get respite ? why am i treated when my husband went to war for them made to feel like shit by the government and its pen pushers why did i have to fight for 8 years to get a proper diagnosis for my moderate ASD son with no help in meantime and fight for 8 months to get him into a special school as told by the LA we are trying to close special schools we want as many children as possible how ever disabled physically or mentally to be in mainstream school as funding so tight yes it is because you vilanise the wrong people and dont punish the right people and you take from the poor and give to the rich

Yes I'm sure there are differences between the two-I am also sure that you know I did not mean to draw an exact parallel, just to illustrate a point.

However, you cannot dispute that PROVEN cases of fraud do not mirror exactly the number of actual cases. Can you?

If you can even start to argue that they do, you have more faith in 'the system' than I do!

Still waiting with interest for Aliceliddell's answer?

Incapacity Benefit is being scrapped and we're all slowly being ported over to Employment Support Allowance.

In October last year, George Osborne announced that ESA would be limited to one year only.

After that we're on essentially Income Support - means tested on household (and on help from anyone, if your aunt does some of your shopping, for example). I think it's still called ESA so we get sent to specialist compulsory Earn-Your-Benefits "courses", not bog-standard, Work-Unpaid-In-Supermarkets ones.

I doubt any DLA claiment would mind being checked if they had any confidence in the system Jade.

The worry is that decisions are not made by medical staff. It seems entirely hit and miss and you really can never tell what they are going to do next.

I know of children who receive the higher rate of care for fairly mild disabilities whilst others cannot get DLA at all. Even those with severe and complex needs.

You can fill in the form, send it off, get turned down, appeal and be awarded DLA. Infact a huge amount of claims are awarded on appeal. How can that be? Either the intial decision making is wrong or the appeal decision is wrong.

I know people with the same conditons, affected in the same way - one will be awarded DLA, one will not.

I failed an ATOS test because I turned up for it. I couldnt be suffering from what I said I suffered from because I turned up for the test!. I turned up for it because they told me I had to and if I didnt I would lose the benefit I was on.

A bit like the drown the witch test. If you float you are a witch and will be killed, if you drown you are innocent but are dead anyway.

People are scared because DLA always has been hard to get and hard to keep. If its been such a lottery up till now what the hell is going to happen next?

Those making decisions appear to know so little about the lives they are tampering with. They wanted to stop mobility allowance to anyone living in residential care. That would mean that they couldnt choose when they wanted to go out. Their carers could not have them home for weekends, their lives would be entirely dictated by the availability of minibuses and staff ratios.
I have no confidence at all that the right thing will be done by people with disabilities.

DSS theft is different to some fraud. They dont have to prove intent. A fraud can be a mistake. All gov departments have special rules for themselves. Suprised??

Smileandwave, you seem upset from your post, I can't quite make out some of your points. What do you mean about prisoners? Are you saying they get treated better than disabled people?

Also not sure what you mean by the last bit of your post- who should be punished? I don't know that any more is being given to the rich now, surely cuts must affect the rich too? Yes not with the same impact, as they have a cash cushion, but I don't think they are getting more now than they were?

jade80 we are ALL possibly going to lose it unless we cant walk X distance the figure dont wash they want a third of dla off the system yet such a small % of people are fraudulent as you have to go every so often to health checks as well as they contact your gp and specialist and get written confirmation but that wont matter to my DS and thousands of others who get dla for different reasons because they are changing the goalpost so as to get this third of people off dla not because they have miraculously got better or grew limbs or are suddenly not autistic or dyspraxic

Now we ARE GETTING SOME ACTUAL EXPERIENCES, jADE. lIKE mrs De vere. we are learning things from people who experience the system They matter more than theorists.

I would expect actual fraud cases to be slightly more than proven fraud cases.

I don't know how much more, but given the depth and frequency of DWP medical assessments that have long been required for anyone with a varying condition, I'd expect the actual number to be close to the proven number.

Interesting that you chose rape as your eg, which has a spectacularly huge discrepancy between incidence and conviction. Rather than, oh I dunno, tax fraud. Which is at least is another type of fraud, and might be a more useful comparison.

TIANC- Well perhaps that will catch the two individuals I know of who claim fraudulently, here's hoping! So when it changes to income support after a year, will the total amount of support you recieve drop? Or will it reach a similar level as it is means tested? Do you think it fair that you get less if someone in your family helps you out? What will you be expected to do to 'earn your benefits'?

Jade your tone towards Smileandwave, who is clearly upset, does you no credit at all.

This is not a place to be smug.

People are terrified for their futures. Its not a game.

I don't think anyone grudges one penny spent on genuinely disabled people who are unable to support themselves. But there is nothing wrong with focussing services on people that are genuinelin in need and discouraging a disability culture. What I don't understand is, why does Britain have many many more times more disabled people than other European countries and why its taboo to point this out?

I know people who are blind who work, likewise I know a young person who once had a bad back, which seemingly prevents her working but does not prevent her competing in an exhausting physical sport. I also have a friend who is a GP who has gone through the complaints procedure because she refused to agree that a young healthy man was disabled, when he was using the time to set up his own business.

The other question I have to ask is why are so many people so keen to be labelled as disabled? I have constant asthma related problems but theres no way I'd want to be considered disabled, yet because of it I've basically been ill on and off for the past 6 months due to suffering so badly when I got pneumonia. But I am fully aware that some others would have achived their life's dream at such a set of circumstances and jumped on the bandwagon.

JADE aLLBRaggers dont tell the truth about crimes. And people doing job applications are careful what they divulge. Gossip is interesting, but it aint a court of law. People say prisons are CUSHY..(Victoria Derbyshire does often) But I watched STRANGEWAYS on tv .Not my idea of cushy

nijinsky you DO realise that DLA is paid to people who work dont you?

You blind friend who works is just as likely to have their benefit cut as your friend with the ubiquitous bad back dont you?

goodness jade80 i explained well enough and you think the new policy to save money in the prisoner system to give them 50% off their sentence as they discussed on QT last week for an early plea is ok? and they get therapy and treatment for fear of being sued where as my disabled DH who fought for his country gets nada yes they get treated better than disabled people and im struggling for money and ive just had money taken off me because i get dla and tax credits so i now get less council tax benefit , that money supposed to be for my disabled son my neighbour is on £200,000 a year and he gets child benefit at the same rate as me is that fair it should be capped to a certain income. i could go on

And yes, I too think that many disabled people will soon find themselves substantially worse off than prisoners.

It's hard to accidentally starve or die of hypothermia in jail. Once on the lower ESA amount, with DLA cut from 20% of applicants and with local authorities removing care from people a lot of disabled people will deteriorate to acutely ill through lack of help to prepare food, keep themselves and the house hygenic, get shopping and prescriptions in, etc.

People are going to die. And they'll be the ones who were designated "moderate" need and could have had quite a good life with only a little bit of help.

Mrsdevere, I don't doubt the system is a cause for concern for many. So surely the anger should be directed at improving the system, not just at stopping all fraud checks? The messages I hear strongest are those saying the checks and changes are unfair- NOT that the system for checking needs re-evaluating. I totally agree that medical staff should be involved in decisions. The example you give about the ATOS test you went to is just unbelievable, what on earth are they thinking! Is there a complaints procedure you could go through in that kind of situation? Totally agree re. drowning witches!

''People are scared because DLA always has been hard to get and hard to keep. If its been such a lottery up till now what the hell is going to happen next?''

Well, if it that terrible, reform is the best way? Do you want it to stay how it is, is it a case of 'better the devil you know'?

I have so far not reached a conclusion on my feelings about mobility allowance in that scenario, I would like to know more. How much is mobility allowance, typically, or is it impossible to say?

You say 'I have no confidence at all that the right thing will be done by people with disabilities.'

I have no confidence that the right thing will be done by any of us, not only those with disabilities. That, sadly, is the problem with democracy!

People are terrified for their futures. Its not a game.

very true MrsD I can't even think about it, wtf will happen when my dd is 19 it is only 3 yrs away(she is ok now as in a sn school) how will I care for her if DLA isn't there, if support isn't there, if places at sn colleges/respite and the other things we will need aren't there, oh yes she will have to go into a care home.....
at 19 ffs, she hasn't made this mess, she isn't part of some dreamed up disability culture, she isn't proud to be disabled, she didn't get her lifes dream when she was damaged at birth,
yet it will be her and people like her who will suffer.
I am terrified, and she is lucky no pen pusher will ever be able to say she can work or she isn't very disabled. what a country when that makes you lucky.

TIANC- I chose rape as it is often commented on, therefore well known about and understood and I simply wanted to illustrate a general point, not find the nearest comparison.

oh and if she has to go into a care home, she will loose her motiblity Allowance, so her outings will be to the places chosen by the staff and whne they want.
no freedom, no coming home.

Thefirstmrsdevere, and smileandwave, I was not trying to be unpleasant, I do apologise if you though I was!! I just thought smileandwave sounded upset, her post was quite disjointed, and I wanted to understand her point.

PS which bit sounded smug?! I was just trying to work out what she meant... evidently I didn't come across how I meant!