To tell ds9 he can't go in neighbour's garden now they have a swimming pool

[Bluesatinsashes]

Been lurking for a while but this is my first thread. I'd like to know what you wise ladies think. Our back gardens are easily accessible, separated by hedges only so kids can run between gardens to play. DS is a good swimmer but we also have a dd3 who can't swim, so I've told them both they can't go next door but one anymore. DS understands my reasons but it's going to be hard for him when he has to say he can't go over, isn't it?

Katie, the pool that's being discussed is quite dangerous in my view. A high sided rigid one, with no "edge" to hold on to and only the steps to climb up into and out of. I don't criticise people for having them, but they should be aware of the dangers. I think your attitude to supervision as regards neighbours is absolutely right and they should thank you for it, not grumble.

Gooseberrybushes - I have been following this thread (from a safe distance). I may have missed it, I dont remember seeing where the OP actually described the pool. We have had a few pools now (they certainly dont last forever). The ones we have had are all fairly typical of the species:

• rigid sided type
• overgrown paddling pool type (with inflatable top ring)
• soft sided framed type

They have all varied between 1m and 1.20m depth. My DCs are now aged between 11 & 15. The pools are in fact incredibly difficult to fall into (centres of gravity and all that kind of thing). In the close to 10 years we have had them not one child or adult has ever fallen in. The simple rules we follow are:

• no random smaller siblings (the OPs 3 year old would be barred from our garden)
• not too many children in the garden at one go - normally my 3 plus a couple of friends
• no rough housing

We dont necessarily sit out in the garden when the DCs are in the pool but we do listen out and check regularly.

Other than that, when the pool is not being used the DCs are under instruction not to mess with it as we then have the filter on and are fiddling with the chemicals (a hobby in itself). This injunction is obeyed.

On the whole I think my garden is pretty much age appropriate. There are steps, there is a greenhouse with an exciting array of chemicals and sharp tools. The DCs know they arent allowed in the greenhouse or to let friends in.

The garden does contain risk but that is some of the fun.

IMO that the OP is allowing her DS to pass unsupervised between gardens is my concern. IMO she should be fencing her garden and the other neighbours should be fencing theirs. The pool is probably the supervised hazard. My garden is fenced to keep neighbourhood children out when they arent invited.

Gnome - as I say, I am not criticising you or anyone else who has these kinds of pools. You seem more aware of the dangers than others but there are no sides to hold on to when children are in, and if it were in my garden then I would be in the garden when children are in the pool, especially if it's one or three. Listening out is not that great unless there are only two children (although earlier I said it was ok, I am disagreeing with myself).

You can't fall in by walking past but when the only ingress and exit is a ladder there is increased danger, including of course the danger of falling off the ladder.

The fact that you have not had an accident in ten years is good: however no one gets run over by a car until they are run over by a car, so it does not lessen the danger in any way. With pools it is the lost moment, the random act, the unpredictable child, which is the danger: drowning is so swift and silent. There were no deaths in the condos where fellow school pupils drowned, until they drowned.

The passing between gardens would not be a problem for me at all (obviously you can tell from my posts) if the parents have discussed it and the children can all play together. Normal precautions etc but it seems very safe, particularly when we are encouraging children at that age to take greater risks without supervision.

It seems to me perverse to focus on that, but to imagine that if you are concerned about water safety you are wrapping children in cotton wool and rearing whining social incapables.

By which I mean to say, it is perverse.

Ah gnome but you're WRONG. Only gooseberrybush is RIGHT. Haven't you heard her mantra enough times?!

(my ears, my ears )

P.s oh and btw I don't think anyone has said passing from one back garden to another is in itself Highly dangerous- it's the issue of the parents whose garden the children happen to be in at any time not even being AWARE that is the issue. Imagine if a child broke a limb falling from a climbing frame, or tripped on the garden path and smashed their face on the paving slabs, and YOU as the householder did not know which children were even playing in your garden! Not a reasonable position to put children or adults in. Nothing nice and natural about it at all. Nice and natural is feeling comfortable enough to ASK to play, and nice and natural is the adult feeling comfortable enough to say no when its not appropriate. Which is clearly not the op's situation, as the pool appeared without any discussion, and she banned her son from the garden and posted on mn rather than have a face to face conversation with her neighbour!! Nice and natural my arse. !

Am I reading this right? If anyone doesn't toe Goosey's line then they are accused of abuse and derision? How very strange.

Yes so be very careful gooseberryfool or you could be next :) brilliant reading though made me laugh

Indeedy

Wow. Scary.

People are accused of abuse and derision when they accuse and deride. It is not imaginary although you seem to have three second memories in this respect.

And it is after all the last resort of people whose train of thought has failed rather.

Goose - the types with a frame/rigid sides have sides to cling on to. These types of garden pool are shallow. My DCs dont even use the steps to get in and out of the pool now.

The pool is only one risk in a garden. I think that children passing unsupervised from garden to garden is a far greater risk. These risks can range from falling into a pond, through messing about with a tool and getting hurt to being harmed by garden chemicals. I am a keen gardener. I have lots of tools & chemicals. Sometimes I leave them out. However, I do not expect to find random children in my garden.

The OP by not supervising does not know where her DS is or what risk he is being exposed to. The pool will probably be secure but the real danger is visiting mad relative me not being aware that randoms use the garden and leaving the garden shears out

Chemicals and tools and so on are like medicines though - they should be inaccessible. Yes - if you are going to leave them out that is a good reason to keep other children away. But isn't that rather obvious?

If neighbours have children and those children are playing in the garden and then they are not going to have dangerous chemicals and tools out because of their own children, surely? Why would you assume this is not the case?
If you live in a bad neighbourhood or you know yours neighbours to be irresponsible it is different of course. I have assumed the OP lives in a normal neighbourhood among normally responsible people, who simply are too lax about the pool because this is the UK.

I disagree with your last paragraph, but I don't think we can do anything but agree to disagree. For example, I would not under any circumstances assume a pool was secure, unless I knew it to be so: I would be more likely to assume that chemicals would be secure, as to the non-pool owning UK public they are more of an obvious danger. But then, you are informed by your own experience as I am by mine.

lots of literals there

read through em is my advice

Okaaaaaaay..... its the entire population of the uk who are being slated for having no awareness of safety now!! And if we disagree we're abusive and derisive to boot!!!

Haven't read the whole thread because I got as far as catchmeifyoucan's outrageous lie that her child had done DofE Gold before the age of 16 and had to comment.

No-one does DofE Gold before the age of 16 as it is not permitted by the scheme. Largely because it is assumed that those below 16 cannot safely be given the amount of freedom and unsupervised time on the expedition and residential that the Gold programme requires. So please don't use fibs about the DofE programme to support your cavalier attitude.

LH - give it a rest. You can't stand the fact that people disagree with you, and that's the end of it.

... Unbelievable!!
Quick get this thread in classics lmao

Other people might not find stories of drowning children as amusing as you all do.

HTH.

Goose - garden chemicals and tools should be inaccessible to whom? If I make them inaccessible to my DCs then I make them inaccessible to me. As I have said, my DCs are not babies or toddlers. I would assume that a pool was safe to them because they wont go in any pool without permission. My garden is safe for my DCs because they know the rules - dont go in the pool without permission and dont muck about with mum's stuff. I make my garden safe to other people's DCs by not allowing them in my garden without permission.

Well - people can have a shed with a lock, or on high shelves in the outhouse? I'm not suggesting you do, because you don't do the playing across gardens thing.

But if everybody knows the children play across three gardens, stuff ought to be kept safe and yes, I assume that these people have a normal level of responsibility and they do that. Maybe I'm wrong and they don't, but who's to know. It's not the wildest assumption in the world that people are normally responsible people.

If anybody's not up for it, they would say so (like you, like Katie etc) and they don't. And that's that. But if all the parents have agreed then it's obvious, I would have thought.

Anyway anyway. Your posts have been very civil which is refreshing. Am happy to disagree and I respect your point of view.

In fact I respect it so much I just googled RoSPA's statistics on garden accidents.

I can see our approaches are different and I think I know why. But it's longer than a two line reply.

I shall google it myself out of curiosity, thank you.

Gooseberrybushes: do you spend your day off having fights with yourself? And do you find you have to try and convince yourself you've abused and derided yourself when what actually happened is you changed your mind?

Gnome: re garden accidents. I would let my children play - of course I have, many times - in other people's gardens. It would not cross my mind to assume they were dangerous places: because I trust the parents to have that normal level of responsibility wrt to chemicals and tools, the same as I do.

I would never ask if they are supervised while in the garden because of those risks: I would assume the risks would be absent. I think this thread demonstrates that in one way, if the crowd earlier are normal/typical, there is a high degree of recognition that gardens need to be safe when children are playing. Since the OP has this regular agreement with the neighbours it's normal to make the same assumption.

If they had a pool however I would always ask about the supervision. Pools are not normal in gardens and again, as demonstrated by this thread, because of or perhaps despite that, there is a very high degree of complacency and irresponsibility about pool safety.

I think it is strange to be so dismissive about pool safety and to have as your chief concern general garden safety or even manners.

I'm not saying you are, you have a view on both, although it favours general garden safety, not at the derision of pool safety.

My primary concern, the one I would ask about and ensure was well covered, is pool safety. I have asked about pool safety loads of times but never general garden safety. That is a given, considering I know the parents.

Goosberrybushes,
Have just read through most of his thread in one sitting, my jaw is hitting the floor! I cannot believe some of the people who have argued with you about basic pool safety. Well done to you for holding your ground!

The point I was trying to make about all garden safety is that assumption is dangerous. One household may leave their garden at all times as though unexpected visitors may appear without warning. Others may not be so forward thinking so may sometimes leave tools out, sheds unlocked etc. They arent worried because they are out for the day with their own DCs.

This is the rub, what I do and what my neighbour does may not be the same. The open house idea of allowing a child to go from garden to garden unsupervised assumes so many things:

• that the security of tools & chemicals is the same as before
• that the child is welcome at that precise moment
• that the garden is safe at that precise moment

The only way that a parent can make these assumptions even with a neighbour who shares similar attitudes to child safety is to knock on the front door to ask if the child can come in to play.