to be upset about OH looking at porn??

[flamingoagogo]

Caught him out the other night, its not the first time either. Have been v.pissed off each time & always results in a row, but just so happens i am PG atm so feels worse. I hate the thought of it, like he's cheating (i know its not as bad as that but he is kind of 'being intimate' with another woman, even if shes not really real). Makes me feel inadequate etc etc. AIBU to feel so hurt?

Have you? not but guess what, smilling is a big fuckoff clue.

HerBEggs - that was not your question at all and no where have i said women who are raped should act in a certain way. that is ludicrus to even suggest i have said that. Women are raped in all manner of situations and it is completly wrong. ( I have family, yes more than one who has been raped, including my sister who was raped by her ex in hospital after she had just given birth).

I did misread actually , sorry, but having read your previous arguments, the gist is that those women are mostly there through no will of their own and this just does not tally with what I know from personal experience.

Bemybabe it is not to say that rape victims end up doing porn.

Rather, it has been observed that a large number of women who sell sex, be it stripping, prostitution or being filmed, have histories of abuse.

Some of these women have been abused as children, some as young adults, some have been raped, some have been abandoned or been in care.

This behaviour is called trauma re-enactment and is a well known reaction to abuse. (It is one of the reasons that abused people sometimes go on to be abusers themselves. Of course not all victims of abuse do this.)

The above is the reason for the inclusion of Felicity's relationship with her father (abandonment and rejection) being relevant to the documentary.

It is also one of the reasons informed people tend to be against porn and prostitution (which are the same thing, porn is filmed prostitution) - because vulnerable and traumatised people are exploited in the most awful way in these activities.

No my argument is not that they are there through no will of their own.
My argument is a bit more complicated than that.

bollocks StewieGriffinsMom - we all know and uderstand that it goes on but not to the degree where most of you think it is the norm.

Children in porn are not pron films. they are Pedophile films and are completly illiegal same is snuff films. these are not porn but sadistic and sick films for very discturbed people.

Felicity was smiling ( although her eyes showed shock and confusion) when Max Hardcore shoved his penis into her, minutes after she met him - without a word of what he was about to do, he simply pushed her over and penetrated her, if that's not rape, what is it?

You would think that having women in your life who have been raped, you might have a little more understanding.

Ok, fair enough. As for porn I do not think it is either glamorous or harmless, I am more in the camp that thinks it is shallow stuff for shallow people. And their actors are not meek victims but those who are prepared to trade their own bodies for money (or drugs). Some have my sympathy but most don't.

I didn't research anything porn related though.

I suppose you could say people choose to re-enact trauma - although I think 'compelled' would be a better word.

A neglected abused rape victim like Jenna Jameson would appear to have been compelled to do exactly that. They way she 'chose' to re-enact her trauma was by stripping and porn. Probably not helped by the fact that she was thrown out by her father when she was 16 and her boyfriend pressured her to strip to earn money for both their drug habits.

It is also an element of trauma re-enactment that those doing it will fiercely deny that that is what is going on and will be enthusiastic about the situation they find themselves in. It is a form of protection.

You are right Mal, there is a documentary on MN in the feminist section about porn which shows a women being raped, she is smiling nervously whilst it happens.

Although in this society of rape myths there are no doubt plenty of people who wouldn't even notice that this woman is being raped.

Well MrSpoc, you have a choice.
You can either take some responsibility for yourself and go off and actually do some reading about the industry you are supporting: watch the documentary linked earlier, read the Gail Dines book or some of those porn star testimonies.
Or you can carry on with your fingers in your ears singing lalalala and pretending that there is some magical aura around the porn you watch that means women have never been raped or exploited in it despite the prevalence of those things in the industry.

actually, even if he watches/reads the stuff, he will still be singing lalalala because he's made up his mind and no amount of evidence is going to change it.

Mr Spoc, I am really quite bewildered that you believe that someone who suffered horrendous sexual abuse as a teenager later going into the porn industry can be described as an 'inspiring' example of someone who has 'turned it all around'. Ahhhh yes, she really showed 'em, didn't she?

sethstarkaddersmackerel So you date men who fuck hookers eh? Don't think you're qualified to comment on this sudject in that case (oh i forgot you "saved" him!)

Eggs You still going on?!

And as for your wife enjoying porn...that's nothing new. I used to really enjoy it myself (I am female). Most of us are quite turned on by people with no clothes on in sexual situations; nothing ground-breaking there.

Like you, I was naive but my eyes have been opened now to the reality of the industry. Perhaps you and your wife could do some reading around the subject? (Lots of links suggested upthread). After all, if you're so convinced there's nothing wrong in it, then you won't object to a bit of reading just to put your mind at rest, will you?

I would suggest that makes seth pretty well-qualified to comment on this topic, to be honest.

Plop, would you have a problem with discovering your OH had been with a prostitute prior to being with you?

I'm married.
I once went out with a man who had used a prostitute once, in 1995.
Love the idea that means I have hereby disqualified myself from posting on threads about porn. Am I irrevocably tainted by his actions before I met him? Damn!

The phenomenon is examined here - this article was linked to by dittany on the porn documentary thread.

"Revictimization is a consistent finding.35,47,61 Victims of rape are more likely to be raped and women who were physically or sexually abused as children are more likely to be abused as adults. Victims of child sexual abuse are at high risk of becoming prostitutes.38,72,125 Russell,120 in a very careful study of the effects of incest on the life of women, found that few women made a conscious connection between their childhood victimization and their drug abuse, prostitution, and suicide attempts. Whereas 38 per cent of a random sample of women reported incidents of rape or attempted rape after age 14, 68 per cent of those with a childhood history of incest did. Twice as many women with a history of physical violence in their marriages (27 per cent), and more than twice as many (53 per cent) reported unwanted sexual advances by an unrelated authority figure such as a teacher, clergyman, or therapist. Victims of father-daughter incest were four times more likely than nonincest victims to be asked to pose for pornography."

www.cirp.org/library/psych/vanderkolk/

pornharms.com/
For general and detailed info about how porn harms women and society in general
www.allacademic.commeta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/7/0/5/2/pages170523/p170523-1.php
Research into how violent and abusive acts have become mainstream in porn
www.socialcostsofpornography.org/Layden_Pornography_and_Violence.pdf accademic research into the cost to society
pornharms.com/full_article.php?article_no=191
Powerpoint about sexual exploitation.

I could go on listing sources of information but it seems that certain people are happy to close their ears and eyes to all reality and selfishly and slavishly maintain their own ignorance.

Mr Spoc and others who are ignorant of the growing social costs and the exploitation of women please watch the felicity film and then come back and discuss.

As a question, why is "Jenna Jameson" not representative of the porn industry and yet "Felicity" is?

Or to put it another way (lest I'm accused of having some pro porn agenda):

Why is "felicity" not representative of the porn industry and yet "Jenna Jameson" is?

It seems that anecdotal evidence is terribly important depending on which side of the argument you are...

You're right queenbathsheba, they aren't interested and I find that odd, personally.

If someone told me something ethically questionable about an industry I was supporting, I would want to spend a little bit of time checking out those claims. The fact that the porn-defenders on this thread have persistently refused to do that speaks volumes.

Perhaps they fear they will be forced to rethink their stance and will be left with a moral dilemma.

Jenna is representative of the porn industry in lots of ways (eg having been raped and having a drug problem), her salary is not representative. The whole reason why she's famous is because she is so high earning so it stands to reason it's not representative. That is not a matter of opinion, it's fact. Felicity's experience of Max Hardcore matches what everyone else has said about him, there is no reason to believe he was having a bad day and isn't usually like that. He regularly topped the porn charts so you can't argue he's irrelevant to all except a tiny minority of porn users, nice as that would be to believe.

"Jenna is representative of the porn industry in lots of ways (eg having been raped and having a drug problem), her salary is not representative. The whole reason why she's famous is because she is so high earning so it stands to reason it's not representative"

Which is fair enough.

"Felicity's experience of Max Hardcore matches what everyone else has said about him, there is no reason to believe he was having a bad day and isn't usually like that. "

I'm sure Max Hardcore is a particularly unpleasant person but that's not what is being said. Reading this thread "Felicity" seems to be being put forward of a typical porn star.

Neither argument is particularly convincing.

Indeed, in 13 pages of posts there's only been one post that contained a proper referenced article which shows how poor the standard of debate is.

As someone who really doesn't have an opinion either way, neither point of view as put forward on this thread has been convincing. All I can see is one side trying to browbeat the other in to submission.