to find my MIL's and others' hatred of irrational private education unfathomable?

[jillyherbert]

I have an otherwise reasonable and supportive MIL. However, when it comes to the subject of private education she is unable to have a reasonable discussion about it. When talking about our (as yet unconfirmed) plans to go private with our twin DSs phrases such as:
"Over my dead body"
"You'll ruin them"
"I won't have my grandsons turned into sneering toffs"
"I won't speak to you if you do this"
seem to be par for the course.

Where does this vitriolic bias come from? Neither I nor DH were privately educated, but most of the state schools within a large radius are shockingly bad (I teach at one, and have taught at two others so have enough knowledge to make a balanced decision.)

The same prejudice against private education is rife in my profession too. I once mentioned to a colleague that I was considering going private and the fuss this caused (and is still causing) almost lost me a friend or two.

I'm not here to discuss the merits of one system or the other, just why the debate seems to be framed by an irrational hatred of private education.

perfumed, you run the risk of validating florence's point by making comments like that

How's that then jellybelly?

Ok, I was being unfair using the term bright to be provocative. However, the raison d'etre of private education is to buy advantage, so that in the end, less bright pupils from private schools will take the place of brighter pupils from state schools.

This is undeniable

This is always going to generate this kind of bunfight isn't it as an earlier poster said - people look for the comfort of other people doing the same as them to help them feel confident in their own decisions and if they don't then people feel terribly judged on either their parenting or their principles.

I felt this very much - a friend and neighbour of mine has twins close in age to my dd and we had talked for a long time about them going to the same school just around the corner - state c of e, one form entry etc.

Mine started the nursery slightly ahead of hers and one afternoon I went round to invite for a play and hers were at school. She had panicked that the younger of her twins wouldn't cope with the hurly burly and had enrolled both in a pretty exclusive prep school that had even tinier classes and a direct route to the local independent privates.

I felt very strange about it - started rationalising that I was only cross as she hadn't told me about these plans unfolding etc. But I think if I am honest with myself it was because I felt she was judging my choice and I was worried I was somehow failing my child by not stumping up for "the best" even at this tender age.

With time for reflection I expect she rather envies my lack of pressure at the mo' financially and my child's rather more robust approach (hers have never done nursery, mine in daycare from v young).

We just have to do what's best for us don't we?

Here's the research into state school pupils doing better at university than privately educated pupils

www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/03/state-school-pupils-university

I think there will be a lot of that 'comfort in numbers' think barristermum, but it's by no means all parents. I send ds to state primary, it has a good name and the majority of parents are involved and helping the school. I attended a Catholic comp and did very well, and my sisters who hated academic study flunked. It's largely about attitude/aptitude, whatever the school.

I won't send him to the local secondary because the school is failing. I understand the argument about sending bright, able students to pull it up, I just don't think it's as simple as that. In Scotland the system is in chaos. I won't take that risk with my only child.

I am not trying to buy him an advantage, I am trying to provide him with a decent education and the state is failing to provide that. They need to sort this out, not parents.

Of course, everyone would like all the children to have the same advantages in a fair society, but we don't live in one.

FlorencesMachine, I am not really concerned about final university outcome but how do you define 'doing better' and what do you know about the data sources for these stats? I do have some knowledge and expertise in this so it would be great to have a serious conversation with you about educational outcome measures.

Batsintheroof - Do you own your own house? Are you or your partner in employment? Are you planning a holiday? Do you own a car? Do your children have any extracurricular pastimes that you pay for? Are contemplating tutoring? Do you live in a fairly crime free neighbourhood? Do you frequent upmarket coffee shops? If you are doing any of these you are effectively condoning inequalities.

The thing is though, all the private school parents who say 'we go without holidays/live in a smaller house/do without organic food and treats' etc, are basically saying they think the school a child goes to is MORE IMPORTANT than any of those other things, aren't they?

So how can they then argue that it is really only the same as a Starbucks coffee after all?

If you contribute taxes into the state system but then pay again to go private you should probably be congratulated for freeing the resources to be spent on others. Put all kids into one system and we all end up paying more.

Besides, it all sounds horribly Communist to me, denying people the right to spend their money how they want. I'm inherently distrustful of people who want to manipulate society by dictating this sort of thing (obviously not reading my copy of the Guardian hard enough!).

And anyway, surely no one is saying that all the wonderful involved parents with children who want to learn come from wealthy backgrounds and can afford to opt out? Isn't that a bit insulting to all the others from lower income brackets who are just as involved and motivated? Do they really need a tiny percentage of wealthy people to come riding on their white chargers to rescue the state schools? Sounds like an excuse.

I say this as someone who certainly won't be able to afford to go private if the issue ever arises.

JoanofArgos, if your post is a reply to my last one, my point was directed at Batsintheroof and it was about condoning inequalities.

crystalglasses,

This isn't something I know a great deal about it, something I've picked up from occasionally coming across it in the newspaper. The study about was using degree classification.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts

Crystal it was your post that reminded me it is what I think everytime I get told that not living in a shack or something, or your child not having rickets, is the same as condoning 7% of the wealthiest children being educated in isolation from the rest, but it wasn't a direct post 'at' you.

Bluegrass,

Let's say you can't stop people spending their money as they wish, but would it be wrong for universities to limit entrance numbers to those who had been given an unfair advantage.

Typically, private education has allowed for the purchase of privilege to gain access to publicly funded universities.

crystalglasses

no (rent) yes (both) no (i wish!) yes (work) yes no (def no!) no (not really) sometimes.

These issues are about lifestyle. I would never consider tutoring. Does bedtime reading count :s

crystalglasses I dont really see your logic but heyho. Im talking about the CHANCE to do equally well in life.
Education means so much more than all these other issues you have pointed to. Education has the ability to lift the poor out of poverty. Owning your own house and car will not not help your child get into oxford. Education is so so so so so important.

A poor person's child deserves the same CHANCE in life to afford a house, car, go to coffee shops as a richer person's child.

It's very hard to apply broad political principles to specific people I think - hence the opprobrium heaped on Diane Abbot for seeming to sacirifice her ideals for her son's education.

So much will depend on the child so that I have some scepticism with the bright kid will succeed wherever argument - I was a bright kid and didn't precisely succeed in primary state education as I was bullied/bored. My parents sacirificed a great deal (they wanted me to have the standard of education they had had at grammer schools) and I won scholarships to a local independent day school.

I had an amazing time - was offered opportunities I would never have had at the local comprehensive alternative and left the place with more self confidence than was dreamt of in the dark days of the bullying.

My close friend was at the same school and had been tutored out of her skin to get in there and once there couldn't keep up, parents couldn't accept it, she lost all her self confidence and became very angry - as she grew up she dropped out and, without meaning to write a modern morality tale, turned to drugs and very very sadly died young.

My point is - the school was right for me and not for her. The local school was right for my best friend from the village who went on to go to Oxford. It would not have been right for me. These choices have huge implications for the children for whom they are made and we should just hope that parents make them for the right reasons for their children and not for insecurity/snobbery/inverted snobbery and so on.

OP - have you asked your MIL why she feels the way she does about private education? It's possible that her views are not irrational. I hear lots of arguments for and against private or state schooling and I don't think any of them are irrational.

Perhaps she is concerned about the long term financial commitment? I agree that if she is not being asked to contribute then this shouldn't be a concern to her but lots of grandparents do worry about the financial security of their children and grandchildren. A colleague's husband was made redundant last year and has so far been unable to get another job, they have now asked both sets of grandparents to help with school fees because they don't think their children could cope with the transition to state school. Unless you are very wealthy, having the money to pay will always be a consideration.

Perhaps she considers it to be a waste of money. It is not a given that children from private schools will do better than if they had gone to state school. I mix with people who went to lots of different schools and it is not easy to tell who went where. I have always believed that bright children with supportive and interested parents will do well in any school.

Perhaps she has a moral objection to some parents being able to buy a better education for their children. Some people think a good education is a universal right and shouldn't be based on ability to pay.

Perhaps she has close links to the schools you will be avoiding? She might not agree that the local schools are as bad as you say.

These are all valid views, they might not be correct but they are rational. If you discuss it with her you will find out why she feels the way she does.

As for teachers, my aunt is a headteacher of a large inner city comprehensive. She told me once that at the end of each day she asks herself if she would be happy for her son to be a pupil in her school, if the answer is no then she knows she is not doing her job properly. This might explain the reaction of some of your colleagues.

Florences, I do agree with you over the unfair advantages re uni entrance. I know changes are afoot and agree they should be.

I was more concerned about avoiding a really bad secondary than trying to plan for university, which I am not convinced is the way forward for my ds.

FlorencesMachine- I think universities should be encouraged to look at the whole package when deciding who should be awarded a place, of which the grades achieved are just one factor.

Actually Florence I don't think you would be interested in my thoughts because they would not be particularly palatable to you and I don't want to go down the 'yah boo' route.

I would love for my dc to have gone to a state school but it really wasn't an option at the time. It would have saved me a lot of money. However she had a wonderful education but she would probably have had an equally excellent and successful education in a state school, bewcause I agree with lots of you that what really matters is the involvement, encouragement and interest of the family so that children thrive whereever they are.

I never sent my dc to a private school to give her a leg up, to mix with wealthy and privileged people, to ensure she went to university, or to be one up on my friends. I'm not going to go into my circumstances here but nothing could be further from the truth.

This thread was entertaining but is now becoming futile because of the entrenched attitudes on both sides.

perfumedlife and crystalglasses-

It's a shame that you feel that the state schools can't accommodate your dcs. It's such a difficult situation when there aren't any good secondary schools around. It makes me so that in some places the schools are just crap.

I think everyone agrees that many state schools need improving.

I don't think any school is 'just crap' though - some are better than others, but all must have a least a few redeeming features, or teachers?

The problem with the OP is that it basically says 'I don't want to discuss or hear any arguments pro or anti state, I just want to know why anti-private people are so irrational'. Which is a tad unreasonable. So yes, YABU.

Do you live in the north JoanofArgos? Some of the social problems here are heartbreaking. It spills over into the school and good teachers just can't bear to teach in these places . The teachers that stay spend their time telling everyone off. A lot of investment is needed to help the schools do better but they just don't receive it. It's not the school's fault.

I just couldn't send my child to some of the schools round here - i would move house before that happened.

and that IS me condoning social inequality. Everyone has their limit unforunately

I do live in the North, yes. Probably not quite where you're talking about, to be fair, but not in one of the oft-imagined 'leafy catchments' which get mentioned on here.

batsintheroof

"I think everyone agrees that many state schools need improving."

I agree most people would agree with you. In my opinion, one of the problems with private education has been the ability however, for the decision makers and the influential to take their children out of the system

How good would a random state school in the Berkshire area be if Prince Willam had gone there?