to find my MIL's and others' hatred of irrational private education unfathomable?

[jillyherbert]

I have an otherwise reasonable and supportive MIL. However, when it comes to the subject of private education she is unable to have a reasonable discussion about it. When talking about our (as yet unconfirmed) plans to go private with our twin DSs phrases such as:
"Over my dead body"
"You'll ruin them"
"I won't have my grandsons turned into sneering toffs"
"I won't speak to you if you do this"
seem to be par for the course.

Where does this vitriolic bias come from? Neither I nor DH were privately educated, but most of the state schools within a large radius are shockingly bad (I teach at one, and have taught at two others so have enough knowledge to make a balanced decision.)

The same prejudice against private education is rife in my profession too. I once mentioned to a colleague that I was considering going private and the fuss this caused (and is still causing) almost lost me a friend or two.

I'm not here to discuss the merits of one system or the other, just why the debate seems to be framed by an irrational hatred of private education.

What's interesting about this thread is that it imitates rl in that people who send their children are constanty having to defend their choice.
Rarely do you find parent of private school children being so offensive to parents who send their children to state schools.

However at least some posters like Anaxgora are respoding in a more balanced way.

Well, from a wider perspective, I hate the notion that everybody would go private if they could or they just don't care enough.

Having an educated population benefits EVERYBODY in society. It is better for all of us for the general public to be literate, skilled and hard working. There is an argument that creaming off the rich and giving them the best penalises those left in the state system. Those people who go private tend to care about their children 's education and invest time and money into it. Arguably this time and money would be better spent focussed on education for everyone. If more affluent parents were in the state system, the government would have a greater stake in getting it right as there would be more to lose in terms of votes and party donations.

The same applies to the health service. When it is free for everybody, it is in everybody's interest to make the service the best it can be.

So people may have chips on their shoulder, they may object to the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude out of some misplaced liberalism but it's not irrational, it's a perfectly logical way in which to see how the system for everybody could be improved.

I irrationally hate city types and their bonuses and maybe it's an extrapolation of that

part jealousy - part irritation - part inference of self-centred smugness

Me and DH were both privately eduated and DSS and our DC are/will be as well. If the state schools in my area were better than the school he is at then we'd try to switch in a heartbeat but they're not. The school is lovely and they have "day camps" during all the holidays. We don't normally use them but when I go back to work they'll be very useful.

"crystalglasses Thu 17-Mar-11 17:37:16
What's interesting about this thread is that it imitates rl in that people who send their children are constanty having to defend their choice.
Rarely do you find parent of private school children being so offensive to parents who send their children to state schools."

actually parents who send their children to state schools (93% of families with school-aged children) I would guestimate that roughly 99% of them could not afford so it's not a choice to send a child to state in general but it is always a choice to send private

The question is, why are the state schools earning such poor reputations? In my neck of the woods, it's too little discipline, too much meddling with the curriculem , teaching time being eroded by inclusivness, lack of music/language/latin options. I could go on.

Fortunes have been spent, education was world famous in Scotland until the sixties, they shook it up and are loathe to admit they got it wrong.

Grass roots change is needed, not more Tarquins.

messybessy I take your point about the govt having more at stake if parents diverted their kids from private to state, the problem is, are they prepared to stand by and watch their children receive the current standard when they can do otherwise? Who volounteers for the experiment, given the access we have to the league tables?

But Shakirasma you may not be laughing at others' opinions but you are doing worse, you're discounting them. People are giving very strong and compelling reasons for disagreeing with public education and you have repeatedly discounted them as jealous or resentful. Cam you not see how ignorant that is, or do you genuinely believe it? If so, I'm shockwd anyone could be so blinkered.

But activate, why does it entitle people to be so rude to your face about it? It really is remarkable.

CG, I never said it was acceptable to be overtly rude to people, nor did I mention anything about private schools giving people an unfair advantage. I think you are reading things into my post that I never said.

Individuals should not have to justify how they choose to educate their children.

Society however, needs to provide equality of oportunity to all children.

This is not just for the benefit of the individual children themselves, but society in general.

As an aside, I'm not entirely sure of the benefits of private education anyway. It's parental atiitute that makes the difference.

Lots of people have strong feelings about anything 'big' in child rearing, feeding, discipline, childcare and education. It is because it strikes at the heart of us, people making other decisions makes us feel defensive of our own choices and it is hard to look beyond that primal instinct.

Op, I think you just have to understand that many sane and well educated and even wealthy people simply object to private education. There is nothing irrational about this. To say it is irrational is to be rude and dismissive of someone else's pov. Unfortunately for you, your MIL is one of these people and she is not prepared to keep quiet about it. What does your dh say to her when she talks like this?

What if instead of "intelligent, interested, involved parents" improving the State system , the State system lets their kids down?

The main objection seems to be that (selective) private schools are "creaming off" intelligent kids with involved parents thus depriving the state of kids/parents who would otherwise raise standards in state schools.
Its also seen as socialy devisive because privately educated kids are not mixing with "certain types of people"
This implies that people who can afford private education have more intelligent kids and come from some imaginary 'upper/snobby' class.
Nothing could be further from the truth. The only difference is that the parents of privately educated kids have a higher than average income and in this day and age that has nothing to do with class and a lot to do with hard work.
There are kids from all classes, ethnic backgrounds, educational abilities etc etc at private schools, a lot on bursaries and scholarships.

Education is about giving your kids the foundation on which to build the rest of their lives and if parents want to pay to give their kids a better one, then good on them. Be it through private schooling, extra tuition, Kumon or whatever.
They will still be paying taxes to fund state education but their kids wont be costing the state anything to educate.

OP, why don't you let your MIL come with you to view some prospective schools (both state and independent) and see if you can make her change her views. Not that its any of her business what you choose.

(sorry for the long post)

I think your MIL fears 'toffs' than has any great insight into private or moral objection to state.

May aswell be saying your children 'will get ideas above their station'. Which is fairly ludicrous outdated tosh.

Objection to private of course.

The only difference is that the parents of privately educated kids have a higher than average income and in this day and age that has nothing to do with class and a lot to do with hard work.

Sorry that's a load of bollocks. They may work hard but there are a lot of other people who work hard and don't get paid a lot of money like teachers, nurses, carers, soldiers. At some point in their lives self-made people have usually prioritised money over other things, and mostly they have been fucking lucky to be intelligent, live in the West and had at least a reasonable education themselves that has given them the opportunity to do a job which is perhaps not particularly interesting or valuable to society or that they enjoy but that makes them a lot of money.

It really gets my goat when people start congratulating themselves for doing so well. There is always an amount of luck involved somewhere down the line.

My objection is not to individual parents sending their kids to fee-paying schools but to them existing at all in society. I just think the same educational opportunities and facilities should be available to all regardless of income. Also it isn't right to have a self-perpetuating elite especially in areas like politics.

MrsH.. of course the same opportunities should be available to all regardless of income, but they're not! Some state schools are rubbish and I don't want my child to risk having his future ruined by attending one.

We don't live in a perfect world, but you can't ban private schools to force everybody to be equal.

Do you want to ban private tutors, horse riding lessons, sports clubs, gyms? Not everyone can afford these either, but to suggest that they cease to exist at all in society to make it fair to everyone is crazy.

I agree, a lot of very hardworking people are underpaid.
But in my kids (dare I admit it?) private primary, quite a large number of the parents have jobs like taxi driving and running a corner shop (both valuable to society in their own way). They work very hard and its nothing to do with being lucky, intelligent or having had a good education themselves.
Its about trying to give their kids something better than they had themselves.

If I can go back to shakirasmas response to my earlier post..

It does sound sneery if , when faced with someone who holds a different opinion to you, your only retort is that they are jealous.

And it does sound thick. If I say that a celebrity spending £3,000 on a belt is ridiculous and that celebrity replies that I am just jealous, I would assume she is stupid and unable to grasp that opinions outside her own exist. I am not sure how this is different.

And when I say it makes us sound thick I mean those of us who chose private education.
It irks me when these conversations get ya boo. It confirms peoples worst prejudices.

I work in a private school and get totally sick of the attitude amongst some of the children (and governors) towards our local state schools. Especially as my own kids have been through the local schools. I have heard statements like "the children at School are animals" and worse! The teaching staff are much better as many have worked in both state and private schools.

Nijinsky "(Careers advisor "what do you want to be?" Me "A lawyer" Careers Advisor "I think thats aiming too high. What about a librarian?" Me "but I got all As in my exams"...)"

BTW, Librarians have to study for degrees too, you know - I have Masters Degrees! Wish I earned as much as a lawyer though!

How can giving my opinion , which I admit I stated simplistically because I couldn't be bothered to type out a load of waffle, and which is the same as others on here who have not been slated, make private school parents look thick when neither I or my kids have ever set foot in a private school?

I speak as a state school parent and I know for a fact that some parents at my kids school are jealous because we have discussed this in RL!

yanbu, I went to a private school and once I got to uni, I was shocked by the bitter attitudes of many to private education, I'm 38 now and still when people learn where I went to school they often have some snide comments, it's something many people seem to have a real chip on their shoulder about.

DH's boss sends his kids to much more expensive private schools than we do, so no competition with workmates there .

I dunno what to think. Reading MN has really put me in touch with the whole "class" thing in this country -- something I noticed very little IRL pre MN. The private school "debate" is related to that. And WHY people don't get half as het up about inequity wrt housing/healthcare/furniture/holidays/pollution in their local environment, is beyond me!