OW/OM , I think they really are quite stupid .

[droves]

Why would you want to have a relationship with someone , when you know you will only get at best 50% of their attention ?.

Not to mention missing out on all the nice things , like having them introduce you to their family and friends. Or being know as the girlfriend/boyfriend.

Why on earth would anyone one want to be kept secret , like a dirty secret?.

I cant understand why anyone would put up with that.

If you find out that the person you are seeing is married/has partner you get rid because they are
a) dishonest lying twat.
b) untrustworthy
c) will probably do it again when they get bored of you ,
and d) has a overblown sense of entitlement that they believe its their right to treat people so badly.

Dont buy the "but we fell in love , so its ok" line either.
Thats just stupid .
If they are decent they would split with their dp , before they make their mind up to persue someone else.
I dont believe ow/om are evil , just stupid. so aibu?.

oh Bonsoir, no one would disagree with that I am sure. It is the way thats some people (men/OW/women/OM) handle the end of a realtionship, waiting for something else before they leave, lieing, cheating, hurting. How is that a mature way to end a relationship, in anyone's book?? Though I know you have to keep saying it so that you can feel good about your own choices,

yes. marriages break down. fine. sad but fine. yes, people may well be in a relationship and fall for someone else. fine. there are many people who would rather not be in a monogomous relationship. fine.

All that is fine. Just life. These things happen.

It is the deceit.

what is wrong is telling your wife (or husband) that you love them and only them, that you don't want anyone else. It is pretending that you are in a monogomous relationship with them while sneaking around behind their back. it is looking them in the eye when they ask you that direct question and denying it, maybe even telling them they must be mentally ill (happens a lot when challenged) and getting cross and defensive.

It is looking them in the eye and lying to them. Going out and having sex with someone else secretly. being 2faced. It is not about having a relationship outside the marriage, it is about deceiving someone that you are in a relationship with. If you want to be out of the relationship - walk! if you want to be in the relationship but seeing other people too - then say that is what you need.

In short, give the other person the choice, the information they need to decide if it is the relationship they want. Don't con them into thinking they are in one type of relationship while you go behind their back.

just don't hold them, kiss them, look them in the eyes and tell them you love them, while you know that you will be walking the dog in half an hour so you can whisper sweet nothings to the person you are sneaking around with. It's cruel and it's cowardly.

macdoodle - what do you know about my own choices? Nothing, I think. However, I am surrounded by unhappy marriages. MOL died a fortnight ago - she and FOL were married for nearly 50 years - and POL, who had been dutiful and devoted to her every need, is delighted and started ringing round his old girlfriends the moment she was buried

I understand valhala, that you and your bf are not in this situation and that you are open about the nature of your relationship. I guess the bit I don't understand is why his wife is not included in this opennes, if it's a mutually agreed arrangement that suits all parties? Why is it necessary for him to deceive her ?

Sorry I know I am asking you to explain his actions but he isn't here to ask

I agree that adults cannot be stolen and both parties are responsible for an affair

Bonsoir, what a hideous post, you think its amusing that a man is delighted his wife is dead and off to shag someone else?
You have such a skewed sense of morality, I find it hard to even conceive of it.

I am perfectly sanguine about the fact (that I have discovered only in the past few days) that FOL was absolutely miserable with his wife, not merely submissive, as we though previously. He is very keen to make up for lost time now.

MOL was perfectly beastly, of course!

A marriage won't always last. a deeply unhappy marriage is no good for anyone.

It may not break up until someone else comes along. Although I am not keen on the sex / affair part.

What I don't like, and feel so much sympathy for, is that one person's life is being re-tracked without their knowledge. One person gets their life boat all ready to go and the other gets left floundering, trying to catch up.

A bit of help for the person (that you supposedly loved very much all those years ago) wouldn't go amiss.

macdoodle, I don't take it as an insult that you feel I son't have morals, empathy and self-respect. I don't even take as an insult the fact that you expressed the hope that the shit hits me in the face when it hits the fan.

I took as an insult the fact that you called me "vile", "odious" and "a narcissist".

Odd that perhaps, but maybe most other people would too.

WRT your own experiences, they appear to be similar to mine. I've met men who have invited me out/I've dated who didn't mention that they were married as well as those who've come on to me when we both knew that they were married. I'm inclined to think that there are more adulterous men or potential, would-be adulterers than we'd initially think. Maybe humankind is not a naturally monogamous species, I don't know. What I am fairly sure of is that there are a heck of a lot of men out there who are having/have had/would be willing to have extra-marital affairs.

Marsha - I know what you mean, but it presupposes that the party being left is reasonable and that dialogue/renegotiation about the state of the relationship could have been mature, engaged etc. That is not always the case, by a long shot.

Thank you for answering my post Valhalla. Perhaps you do not lack in self esteem, but you are right it is a common presumption.

I cannot agree with the choice you have made in your life. I realise that this is a gross presumption on my part as I know you are not looking for agreement/approval for your choices.

I can only speak from my experience. My ex was unfaithful to me. It broke my heart. That's all I can say.

I'm sure Bonsoir. There are cases when a relationship is so deeply unhealthy it is sadly impossible.

A friend (who may well now be with a married man had years to work out their new joint plan and the wife had no time at all.

But I don't think many people who exit marriages are 'cheaters' (a common thought on mn) or that they will keep doing it etc. It's complicated. There is every reason a second marriage will be very happy / happier. But I couldn't do that to someone who is married because I know how much I would hate to be so powerless re my own life.

I think it's best to be wise to the fact that marriages don't run on happily for 50 years just because you have a ring on your finger/have signed a piece of paper. Believing that you don't have to do anything to stay happily married is naîve and leads to powerlessness. Constant dialogue about the state of your relationship is best IMVHO.

Yes I agree. I have no problem with keeping the other person in the loop about your view of the state of the marriage.

Valhalla:"we dom't all want the man to leave his wife"

This is somehow worse, for me, as if it's ok to keep him being unfaithful, on a long term basis.

Why did you not find a single man-do you actively pursue married men?

I saw an interview on Good Morning (yes I have to admit to that) about a mistress, who thought she was doing her bit for feminism. Tragically sad. Still beats the fact you're not a secretary, that would be too much of a cliche.

I just do not think that being the OW is a simple right here i go choice.

There is alot of support on here for men and women whose spouses have had an affair.

Lots of pointers and understanding to why a married man or woman would have an affair. What started it how it began.

There is little tolerance for the OW/OM, especially if that person is single.

I see compassion for married ow on here alot, support and an understanding that something made them cheat or want to cheat.

There is a huge void empathy or at least human interest in the OW/OM who is single. Yet that person is not just one TYPE. A person who gets involved with someone who falls for them is human, and has baggage, needs, problems etc just the same as the cheater.

I am one of them, yes i was the OW, but in my experience, maybe just maybe it wasn't just cos i thought ooh i would like some sex. That i just fancied a bit of attention, needed a bit of titalation. I was me, my TYPE. Just as he was in HIS situation.

Common denominator, totally clicked, out of the blue, couln't explain the reasons why. How many 'couples' have to explain why they get on , are attracted to each other.

Yes the shitty thing is it's a bad, wrong, sad, sitaution for all. Being an OW is normally becuase a married man is genuinely offering love, partnership, is unhappy. He might not have realised he was unhappy. He might have he might well be living with a wife who is also unhappy but staying together becuase of kids, becuase it's an ok rut to be in. Lots of women on here, we read it all the time are just floating along, as are men. Who knows what can happen, who you will meet.

Many of us have parents who this happened to, mine included. Mother now very happy 20 plus yrs on with the man she had an affair with. Becuase SHE was unhappy with my dad.

I wish i could have chatted on here without fearing hatred, to understand what i was going thru. I did once do a post, gingerly. Yes I did want some sympathy, because I am human, and I had nowhere to go with my feelings. Some others did help me, but anyway, there we are.

Foolish is what i can see in hindsight, hindsight for all of us is marvelous. You do trust someone who says he loves you, wants to be with you can't let go, is lost, is sad. It's not blind faith or trust. It's a process. One i decided could have potential, maybe. Yet in the end he chose to stay, he couldn't leave his kids. No way i could or would want to question that.

He is still very unhappy, and thats his choice.

I would like to add, that i am a loving, kind person who tries my very best, and i was very flattered to be found attractive after yrs alone. But i have had men find me attractive in those years and not found myself wanting to 'be' with them. with my experience its just this particular man, at this time and yes it happened.

Didn't look for it, encourage it. Responded to my heart yes. Kill me. I ended up hurt, we all did. His confessed to his wife he had feeling for me, and they are working on thier marriage. But he still wants me in his life. I feel foolish now for not being stronger at the time.

will now press post message and see what i get.

I was thinking about this thread and about how much ire is directed to OW - when the subject of the ire should be directed to the person who made the promise / vows in first place. I don't think it's up to Valhalla etc to defend their choices WRT the marriage - it's not her marriage.

I also think we idealise marriage too much. They have their ups and downs and sometimes one or both parties go through different life processes iyswim.

Why the deceit? Because everywhere we are sold the theme that marriage has to be perfect, that you must subsume your individuality / desires for the sake of this institution and that total honesty and reliance on the other person is desirable and necessary. Or (and I think this is worse) that it is better to end your marriage / destroy your family than concede an infidelity. That frankly makes me puke - that marriage is SO FRAGILE it cannot withstand a knock or that the institution itself is so important that everyone must impose their own rules on private relationships.

Bonsoir said "It is very hard for marriages to last and be happy for 50 or so years. Many break down. If people were a little bit more sanguine about that and less obsessed with their own personal rule book morality, we might all find life a bit easier."

Totally agree with this.

Disclaimer - married nearly a decade faithfully and happily

I can also the benefits of having a man without having to discuss gas bills, tolerate his family, iron his shirts and argue about whose turn it is to renew the pet insurance.

sorry being an other woman is OFTEN not 'normally'

I think often the OW is treated as the one in the wrong (just look at the treatment of Glenda on Easties!) ALthough being OW is imoral, it's the person who has made the commitment to the other relationship who is in the wrong.

It is cowardly behaviour, messing about with someone's reality is always a bad and cruel thing to do. If OW wants to get mixed up with someone who would do that to another person then I guess it is rather foolish. But ultimately, the blame lies with the cheater.

It isn't black and white, as others have said. But when is anything in life black and white? If you meet someone and fall for them when they are with someone else, it may not be easy to walk away, but there are lots of things in life that arent easy. Do we always take the easy route? Even if it's immoral?

OP i think YANBU, but I also think that you have some kind of history in this area which is letting you see more black and white than many others.

IMO, shagging a person you know is married makes you a bitch/wanker, not stupid.

LOTM, I wasn't actively looking for any man, married or single when it happened, which is why I didn't go looking for a single one.

Do I go looking for married men? No, one's enough and I've been seeing him for coming up to 11 years. Maybe you should be asking if would I date another married man at some point, now or in the future, to which the answer is - probably.

But would I approach a married man who was happy in his marriage and who wasn't interested? Certainly not.

piratecat, that was a brave and honest post and I hope you don't get the same shit that I have for being so open. :)

So what's the thrill of it? A man that's only half interested? I'm sure there's millions of them who are single?

Piratecat , thank you for your honesty.
Intresting that you feel foolish for not being stronger at the time.

I often thought that ow/om recieve so much hatred ,because they enable long term deceit.

If you could go back in time , would you do the same again ? Was he worth the pain ?

In my situation, for 8 of the 9 months my affair was an emotional one, no shagging. I spent the whole time avoiding him, yes there were texts. He agreed he did not want to go down that route either as he was in turmoil because he believed in his vows, in marriage. He did not plan to ever meet another person in his lifetime. But he did. Yet he also had a long marriage that was on the rocks emotionally, ie she didn't love him anymore, but didn't want to hurt the kids. We see that alot on here, shall i stay together with my dh for the kids.

We slept together once. I can't excuse that. I am not a bitch, but it's ok becuase i know that.